Toilet Build Expectations vs Apparent Realities

[Bob Griffith]

DIY tale of woe. Reflooring 2-br 2-ba condo apartment, including baths. Thought it would be ‘cool’ to replace 15-yr old 2-piece Kohler Cimarron toilets with one-piece Kohler San Souci units. Yes, unnecessary extravagance. But when ready to install one of the San Souci’s, discovered rear internal support features protrude below the plane of the bottom rim by about a tenth of an inch, setting up a lateral rocking mode (without adding shims under the bottom rim and extra caulking gook), especially as the rear internal supports are narrowly spaced. Note, larger area and more widely spaced front internal supports are flush to the bottom rim.

Question 1: Is it reasonable to expect the toilet to be fully supported by the wider and larger overall bearing area bottom rim for lower unit floor loading and stability reasons? Note, the new flooring is commercial “flexible grade” vinyl tile, and will incur a slight set when supporting this toilet -- see first pic.

Also to add insult to injury -- the flow exit for this toilet features a number of radial casting defects projecting into the flow area at the exit to the floor -- see second pic.

Question 2: Is this flow exit defect potentially clog inducing? Note, by comparison the second San Souci toilet has a smoothy glazed flow exit (but also features the protruding rear internal supports).

And yet another unpleasant surprise -- the valve to flush unit rubber fill tube in the tank is kinked on the second San Souci (an eventual failure item). And I am being told these toilets are fully tested at the factory.

Finally and annoyingly -- the tank lids on both San Souci toilets rattle, and with their finish undulating in contrast to the apparently better built Cimarron units being replaced.

Thanks a bunch for your comments either way.

 

[Geofd]

After the 1st paragraph and before the second, you mentioned radical cast defects, return it.
And find a Kohler or toto with a 1.6 gpf ,the is another brand people are liking here too just can't remember the name, the one peice Kohler I installed was a 1.28 gpf, it never really got tested customer asked us to remove it, find parts for an older one peice and that's what we did, remember more water is better, for flushing action in your toilet, and wash down in your drain.

 

[Twowaxhack]

My recommendation is to stay away from most Kohler products.

 

[Bob Griffith]

Gerofd -- Appreciate the reinforcement on that issue. FYI, I am working the Kohler interface on both my main issues -- but just a superficial response so far at the distributor level. Having to prove the obvious. To their credit, I was invited to the local warehouse to inspect and pick out new toilets. But the first one out of the box had the same elevated internal rear support issue -- albeit a better flow exit finish than either of mine. So now in the process of escalating these issues to the factory. Basically a royal pain.

Twowaxhack -- Over the years Kohler has given us good service and quality, but now seems to have succumed to the infamous corporate bean counter disease. And innovative -- remember the Kohler "enviroment" of the 70s, a kind of wind and rain shower thing you lounged in? Also, my wife's grandad worked for Kohler in Sheboygan -- sentimental connection.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I’ve had more complaints about Kohler toilets that any other major manufacturer. Poor flushers

 

[Geofd]

I put a lot of Kohler toilets in over the years residential, and commercial, they are good in my opinion, that's what we install at work Kohler,and toto, just wish all brands would stay with a simple flapper and handle in residential.
We do lean towards toto thou

 

[havasu]

With the last Kohler I installed, after about a week of bad flushes, I has a 12" piece of casting material come up into the toilet bowl. I was furious. Kohler told me just to break it out and continue on with life. I told the rep that i had no faith when their own quality control missed something as big as this. They sent me a new base for me to install, but didn't include the 4 hours to remove and replace the bowl, no new wax ring, nothing. Never again!

 

[Twowaxhack]

I can’t tell you how many kohler wellworths models I’ve replaced. Has to be in the hundreds.

The one with the football shaped bottom at the flooor.

I have two at two different houses right now on the schedule to replace. I didnt Suggest replacement, they’re asking for replacements due to them constantly clogging.

 

[Bob Griffith]

With the last Kohler I installed, after about a week of bad flushes, I has a 12" piece of casting material come up into the toilet bowl. I was furious. Kohler told me just to break it out and continue on with life. I told the rep that i had no faith when their own quality control missed something as big as this. They sent me a new base for me to install, but didn't include the 4 hours to remove and replace the bowl, no new wax ring, nothing. Never again!

Thanks Havasu. Any thoughts on the rear internal supports extending below the plane of the bottom rim? Normal practice?

 

[Twowaxhack]

Thanks Havasu. Any thoughts on the rear internal supports extending below the plane of the bottom rim? Normal practice?

It’s a defect. It should be flat.

 

[havasu]

I'm not certain it is a defect. That semi round arch it to keep the wax ring in shape for a proper fit, and to add stability. Unless there is something protruding down past the the base of the bowl. Obviously you would need to make sure the wax ring has a solid feel, plastic shim, then caulk around the front, leaving the back open for ring blow out warning.

 

[Bob Griffith]

It’s a defect. It should be flat.

My opinion too. Let you know what Kohler says.

I'm not certain it is a defect. That semi round arch it to keep the wax ring in shape for a proper fit, and to add stability. Unless there is something protruding down past the the base of the bowl. Obviously you would need to make sure the wax ring has a solid feel, plastic shim, then caulk around the front, leaving the back open for ring blow out warning.

Understand your misgiving. I just don't like the concept. Set up with a below the rim internal rear support as a convenience for facilitating blow out detection? Could be. Thanks.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Nothing should keep the toilet from sitting flat when it’s positioned properly down over the closet flange.

 

[Bob Griffith]

Nothing should keep the toilet from sitting flat when it’s positioned properly down over the closet flange.

Agree notwithstanding other rationale for a slightly elevated rear flange. Even with a 'flat' rim mating with a 'flat' floor, leaving caulk out from behind should be sufficient to permit weeping of water in the event of a wax seal blowut (IMHO).

 

[Twowaxhack]

Leaving the caulking out of the back allows air to exchange, it’s not to let water out from a leaking wax.

Toilets can sweat from temp changes and it can sweat in the hollow area under the bowl.

All that said, I caulk mine all the way around.

 

[Bob Griffith]

Leaving the caulking out of the back allows air to exchange, it’s not to let water out from a leaking wax.

Toilets can sweat from temp changes and it can sweat in the hollow area under the bowl.

All that said, I caulk mine all the way around.

Appreciate the clarification. We're in the Phoenix area, very dry -- right now 29% RH, 50% at the most during the late summer "monsoon" season. So not going to worry much about low temp condensation underneath in a climate controlled modern mid-rise condo. And yes, caulk all the way around keeps water out as well as in (it is a bathroom). But, if the objective is to vent the underneath, why don't the manufacturers put a little hole in the backside a bit above the floor?

 

[arctic bill]

I speak French, the funny part is San Souci means without trouble .
LOL

 

[Bob Griffith]

I speak French, the funny part is San Souci means without trouble .
LOL

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll remind Kohler.

 

[Bob Griffith]

Followup #1 -- Did More Homework.

Discovered that in the USA and Canada the ceramic plumbing fixture industry is “governed” by a set of standards published as ‘Ceramic plumbing fixtures -- ASME A112.19.2-2018/CSA B45.1-18.’ And guess who’s on the list of contributors to this tome -- Kohler personnel from Kohler in Wisconsin. So when my complaint to the local Kohler store reached the quality control folks in Wisconsin, they had no choice but to admit the internal manufacturing support features that protruded below the level of the bottom rim were in violation of this standard -- and by a significant amount.

So I was given permission to inspect and pick replacement San Souci toilets from stock in the local Kohler warehouse,.OR saw off the offending protrusions myself. Since only one of the three warehouse toilets my wife and I inspected were without protruding internal supports, and otherwise without external cosmetic defects -- discretion being the better part of valor -- we chose to saw off the protrusions on our existing toilets ourselves.

The point we’re at at the moment. Toilet ceramic being really hard stuff.-- so ordered in tooling for that.

Note: In my internet travels I actually found a note and pic of where the plumber or owner had actually knocked off such protrusions with a hammer. Also mentioned this to the Kohler quality control guy.

So we’ll do a followup on this tale of woe after we finally finish up our flooring project which started all this -- hopefully with some nice pics of our beautiful baths equipped with sexy looking San Soucis.

Meanwhile I will be submitting a new query on the subject of a kitchen faucet and its replacement -- yes a Kohler. Will i ever learn?

Thanks a bunch for your support!

 

[Twowaxhack]

Kohler being Kohler. They only make a couple products out of thousands that I’ll actually buy and use.