PRV Replacement

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I do see where sweating and soldering would be the easier route. I could sweat three joints to remove the piece of pipe that contains the PRV to include the T connector you see in the forefront of that most recent pic. I could sweat both ends of that T connector and then the opposite end of the PRV where it is soldered to the pipe on the other side. Once that entire apparatus is removed, I can rotate the old PRV off and use an exact match to replace it and then place it back and solder the joints I just sweated to get the apparatus off. Does that make sense and is that what you were thinking?

This is assuming that once I sweat the left and right joints on that T connector, the parallel pipes have enough play to separate them from the T connector. I believe this must have been how the plumber installed this because he surely didn't rotate on the PRV after the fact.
 
Sweating is joining the pipes and fittings. To take apart you are just applying heat not sweating.
Lots of videos. Clean, flux and solder. Practice before you start the project.
The main thing is getting all of the water out of the pipes. Can't sweat if there's water in the there.
You don't want to heat the valves up too much. I wrap them with a wet rag. I didn't know if you're thinking about replacing them since the one on the back wall is not shutting off completely.
I don't like that type. I prefer full port ball valves.
I'm not a fan of the Sharkbites. Everything’s loose. Pipes need to be clean, cut squarely and deburred.
Don't really need to turn gas off.
 
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The problem with that is, the replacement PRV then would have to be rotated into place and you're still faced with the same problem — that being the two flanking parallel pipes will impede that process because the new unit is greater in height than the distance between the two flanking parallel pipes.
I thought the new unit had 2 unions
 
I thought the new unit had 2 unions

It does. Currently, it's fitted with shark bite adaptors at either end. The shark bite adaptors need to attach to clean 3/4 inch pipe, if I choose to go this route. The old Watts PRV is welded with a union on one side, the back side of the PRV in the pic closest to the back wall, and the other end of the unit is rotated onto a threaded extension welded onto the copper piping, so if you merely cut the unit up to get it out as frodo suggests, you still have to cut the pipe to get that threaded extension off so you can attach the shark bite to cleaned up 3/4 inch pipe. Considering that, why not just cut the pipe on either side then? Also, there is no play in the pipe the way it is configured, so if you cut the unit up to enable you to rotate it off without it being impeded, there is not enough flexibility in the pipe to rotate it off. You need an inch to work with to rotate it off, and that inch of flexibility is not there.
 
since you going to use a prv with double unions
leave

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

Leave what? There are two issues with removing the old Watts PRV by merely rotating it off. The clearance between the two flanking parallel pipes isn't wide enough to accommodate the height of the unit AND there is no flexibility in the piping as is so even if the parallel pipes were not impeding, there would be too much resistance from lack of flexibility to back the unit off the threading. The best bet is to heat the three joints as I described above or to cut the middle main pipe at either end of the unit to extract it.
 
You gotta have D- struction before you have CON-struction !!!!!

tear the old unit out, take the bolts off the top and dismantle
cut it out if you have to, THEN you are left with 2 male threads
install the new unit with the 2 unions.
what ever space you have left.
fill it in with a brass nipple and coupling
 
Haha! It feeds the cold water to the house. The hot water heater is apparently receiving full pressure from the street which is greater than 200 psi. I put the gauge to the front hose connection and it exceeded 200 psi. The back hose connection, which is regulated, is the one that experiences 73 psi to 79 psi with spikes to 90 psi and drops to 32 psi. My gauge only goes to 200 psi and the needle wanted to go farther on the front hose connection keeping in mind the front hose connection is fed by the 1/2 inch pipe furthest to the right in the pics. I'm surprised the hot water heater has withstood this kind of unregulated pressure all these years. It's an 18-year-old AO Smith. Built tough, presumably.
If the needle on your pressure gauge wanted to go further than 200psi don’t use Sharkbite fittings. They are only rated up to 200psi

https://www.sharkbite.com/sites/default/files/migrate/SB_Push-to-Connect_SpecSheet_061515.pdf
 
Furry Orca said:
Haha! It feeds the cold water to the house. The hot water heater is apparently receiving full pressure from the street which is greater than 200 psi. I put the gauge to the front hose connection and it exceeded 200 psi. The back hose connection, which is regulated, is the one that experiences 73 psi to 79 psi with spikes to 90 psi and drops to 32 psi. My gauge only goes to 200 psi and the needle wanted to go farther on the front hose connection keeping in mind the front hose connection is fed by the 1/2 inch pipe furthest to the right in the pics. I'm surprised the hot water heater has withstood this kind of unregulated pressure all these years. It's an 18-year-old AO Smith. Built tough, presumably.


Are we back here again?

The existing PRV has a shut off valve. Turn that valve off
If the house is plumbed correctly the water heater should NOT be getting any cold water
NO HOT WATER SHOULD COME OUT the hot side of any faucet
 
Are we back here again?

The existing PRV has a shut off valve. Turn that valve off
If the house is plumbed correctly the water heater should NOT be getting any cold water
NO HOT WATER SHOULD COME OUT the hot side of any faucet

No, "we" are not back here again. That comment is no longer relevant considering the comments that followed. Look at the succession of comments. Comments that have come later than the comment you quoted nullify this comment. Maybe you're back there again, but I'm not. I have moved on and acknowledged my error in perceiving this setup.

Also, the PRV does not have a shutoff valve. That's a misnomer. The main has a shutoff valve before the PRV. We've established that and if you look at the commentary, that valve has been tested and even though it is a gated valve, not ideal by any stretch, it does work in shutting off completely the water to the home.

Your suggestion to cut up the old Watts PRV to get it off is NOT a proper suggestion. You fail to realize that the piping complex that is currently in place is locked in so tight, there is no wiggle room to twist the old unit off even if you cut it down to size to be able to twist it past the two parallel flanking pipes.

The key to this, to make it as simple a replacement as possible without swapping valves, is to figure how the plumber plumbed this when he installed this piping complex under the hot water heater and then reverse his method. I believe he preassembled the part of the piping where the current to-be-replaced Watts PRV resides. This includes fitting that preassembly to the T connector you see in the forefront of the pic that attaches to the middle main pipe and then to the piping perpendicular to the three parallel pipes to include the main. I believe this preassembly to include the T connector was the last piece of the puzzle he fit/soldered in place.
 
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If the needle on your pressure gauge wanted to go further than 200psi don’t use Sharkbite fittings. They are only rated up to 200psi

https://www.sharkbite.com/sites/default/files/migrate/SB_Push-to-Connect_SpecSheet_061515.pdf

Per the revised comments, the front hose bibb experienced 200 psi when I tested it but we now know it comes after the PRV. The only thing that can explain the pressure versus the pressure per the back yard hose bibb which reflects the pressure in the remainder of the home (73 psi to 79 psi) is that the front hose bibb is ten feet or less from this apparatus and the piping goes from 3/4 inch to 1/2 inch as the piping from this apparatus to the back yard hose bibb does. It's that short distance, compared to the distance to the back yard hose bibb, coupled with the pipe size restriction that leads to the ridiculous psi I experienced. I will test the pressure in that hose bibb again to make sure it wasn't an aberration.
 
>>>Also, the PRV does not have a shutoff valve. That's a misnomer. The main has a shutoff valve before the PRV. We've established that and if you look at the commentary, that valve has been tested and even though it is a gated valve, not ideal by any stretch, it does work in shutting off completely the water to the home. <<<<

Technically you are misinformed. the cut off for the main is the meter stop. Code states that every fixture Shall have a cut off valve. A PRV IS a fixture. therefore the valve is the shut off to the prv. It really does not matter one way or the other. You understood my meaning. that is what counted. can we put our dicks away now and get back to work? I believe if you get your tape out i pissed about 6'' farther than you did

I am trying to save you some money,
as depicted in my image. unscrew the top, take out the guts, cut the brass and remove the valve,

The piping configuration that exists does not have to move at all
This would be an excellent time to replace the valve with a ball valve

I do believe you can do all of this work with out having to solder anything.
it would be my recommendation to use brass fittings and nipples on the street side of the PRV
and then you can use the crap they call pex or shark fish on the outlet side. that should make hooking it up easier

I am out. I have to go make money and piss people off for not wearing a mask
PEACE/ OUT
 

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This thread reminds me of what my Dad used to say decades ago ........ Don't ask if you think you already know and won't listen.
The PRV is suspected as faulty ...... perhaps that explains the high pressure within the home.
The pressure should be the same from one end of the house to the other. When the pipes are full the pressure should all be the same regardless of distance and the size of the pipe does not change the pressure ... it determines the volume or flow doesn't it ?
 
Fyi, breplum and gagecalman, thank you for your constructive input and advice. Frodo, thanks for helping me work through perceiving the setup properly. I appreciate your input even if I do not necessarily agree with some of your suggestions.

Jerry Sandusky to his victims:

Take the help from experienced folks like me and quit with all the drama.
 
This thread serves several purposes, actually, so it isn't merely a ploy by a usurping ungrateful grifter trying to snarf up free advice. No doubt others have encountered this very same predicament and very same PRV arrangement. This thread can also be beneficial to them in working their way through it. So, in that sense, it's a chronicle of sorts, communally free to any and all.

I clearly am no expert and I don't think I would ever refer to myself as handy. I do engage in DIY projects, but I also understand I have limitations and when confronted with a project, I consider the cost-benefit of DIY versus farming it out to a professional. This project is on the border of that cost-benefit decision and could go either way considering my limitations. Whichever way it goes, I will still chronicle it so others can benefit from it in the future.

That being said, there is no one way to successfully complete this project. As the commentary underscores, there are many ways to tackle this and the project can vary in scope. For example, at least related to scope, the decision to swap out the inferior gated shutoff valving or not. Whether or not to reconfigure the piping complex and new PRV placement so next time it's an easy swap out is yet another scope decision. Whether or not to sweat and solder versus using Shark Bite fittings is a methodology question. Whether to cut the old unit out versus cutting the pipe on either side of the PRV to remove the old Watts PRV is a question of tactics and methods.

The point is, there is not one answer to this. There are many answers and many ways, some better than others.

As far as experience is concerned, experience has its place but saying you or someone has experience doesn't bequeath you or that person with infallibility or superior status. Here's an example. These fellas are plumbers and have not only experience, but professional credentialed experience that can be readily verified. They claim a PRV isn't even necessary. Following the logic that those with experience are infallible, they must be correct, right? Wrong.

https://www.inhouseplumbingcompany.com/2019/03/13/do-you-need-a-water-pressure-reducing-valve/
Most of the calls we get asking about this valve are for houses 10 to 25 years old and sometimes older.

Our stance: If a home that is 10, 15, or 20+ years old didn’t need the valve before, why is it suddenly a problem? There haven’t been any part failures or flooding because of the water pressure so it’s extremely unlikely the valve is now a necessity. Of course, there are always exceptions but for the majority of the cases, the valve is unnecessary.

But we didn’t stop there. My master plumber, Bill Hoyle, and I went to a trade show a few years ago to talk to plumbing fixture manufacturers. We wanted to know if this was an issue we weren’t understanding, and if so, should we change our stance on it?

We learned two things. One, most of the manufacturers had no idea what we were even talking about when we asked about the the pressure reducing valve. So how can these valves be that important if the manufacturers have never even heard of it?

And two, all the manufacturers test their fixtures from 150 to 200 psi. Meaning, these devices — faucets, toilets, water heaters, etc. — are made to handle a psi from 150 to 200, and homeowners are being made to worry about 80 psi.

Also, I stand my ground on the terminology issue. The main shutoff valve is not the exclusive domain of the PRV, despite the PRV being a fixture, and therefore it is a misnomer to refer to it as the PRV valve. That's misleading and unnecessarily confusing. The main feeds every fixture in the house and not just the PRV. The PRV merely happens to be the first fixture the main encounters.
 
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In fact, I had a constructive phone conversation with a local plumber yesterday. He wasn't an arrogant know-it-all and instead, was an amiable chap who was willing to consider a myriad of options. One option we discussed, his idea, was repairing the old Watts unit in place. Because of what breplum mentioned above, I am wary of this approach. This option does avoid having to remove the old unit and all the complications that presents, but it also introduces the risk that the repair will fail because as breplum revealed, repairing these units is not a guarantee of success by any means.

After much discussion, we decided it would be best to replace it with a double union in order to accommodate ease of extrication next time the PRV needs to be replaced. He wants to cut the pipe on either side and attach the new unit, that he'll provide because he prefers using Watts, with double unions. I'm guessing he will sweat and solder. His charge for this will be $300 which considering all of the quotes I have received, is a bargain considering he is generously and non-reluctantly specific in what he will do for that fee. Also, he is the type of guy that won't mind me observing and learning during the process. For this reason, I believe this is what I will do. I will provide updates and pics of the finished project when complete.
 
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I mentioned I would recheck the pressure on the front hose bibb since the last time I checked it, it was greater than 200 psi. I checked it again this morning and here is the result. I suppose it's possible the first reading when I checked it the first time a couple of weeks prior was a bad reading for whatever reason.

IMG_0548.JPG
The red max hand indicates 110 psi while the black real-time hand shows the pressure ultimately settling at 79 psi. I experienced the 110 psi immediately upon turning the water on. It settled to 79 psi after no more than ten seconds. The back hose bibb does not do this. In fact, the back hose bibb will take approximately twenty seconds sometimes to reach its quasi steady state reading of between 73 psi and 79 psi sans any draw being experienced in other parts of the home. I will be sure to ask the plumber about this when he comes and we'll see if this behavior is cleared up once the new PRV is in place. Remember, it has now been determined that both hose bibbs, front and back, are regulated per the unorthodox setup, assuming a functioning PRV.
 

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