PRV Replacement

[Furry Orca]

Hello All,

I am strongly considering replacing my PRV myself. The estimates I have received thus far to replace it run north of $400 which I think is high all things considered. However, that being said, it's not going to be an easy swap out. When they installed the plumbing for our home that was built in 2001-2002, my locale had just made it code that a PRV must be installed on all new residential construction. As such, this was relatively new for residential new construction plumbers, so it appears they tried to fit the new PRV code into their existing piping arrangement and in doing so, gave no forethought on its replacement after the fact.

Here's what I mean. Here's a pic of the arrangement. This arrangement is fine if not for the PRV and I have to believe it's the arrangement they were using before installing a PRV became code. Problem is, it's not an effective arrangement for replacing a PRV.



The space between the inner part of the pipes flanking the middle pipe where the PRV resides is approximately 5 inches. The PRV top to bottom is 5.75 inches. Therefore, you cannot twist the old PRV off because the outer flanking parallel pipes will impede it. Sans dismantling the PRV unit in place to be able to decrease the height of it to twist it off, which is nuts, the only way I see to get it off is to cut the piping on either side of it.

The current PRV is a Watts. It's 18-years-old and probably started failing around 6 years prior. That is when we started experiencing odd sounds in our pipes and the water pressure started acting wonky. I didn't know anything about PRVs at the time so I had no idea and didn't think much of it. Since that time, some valves have started failing in the house. For example, the shower valves that were guaranteed to last a lifetime all failed at the same time and come to find out, we have had a slow leak in the washing machine intake water valves for a couple of years. I bought a Watts water pressure gauge to measure the water pressure and the water pressure is elevated. It holds steady without any draw on it at between 73 psi and 79 psi with occasional spikes to nearly 90 psi. When there is draw, the pressure drops dramatically to as low as 32 psi. Obviously, the regulator is no longer regulating and I now understand why PRVs were codified.

Here's my plan sans paying a plumber nearly $500 for what for them is a relatively easy project that would only take approximately an hour for them to complete given their skill level. I don't want to solder, so I plan on using shark bites. My plan is to cut the pipe on either side of the old PRV to remove it. I will clean up the end of the cut pipes and install the new PRV with the shark bite adaptors already fastened to it. Here's a pic of the assembled unit ready to be placed.



Here's the conundrum. Because of this piping complex surrounding the PRV, there isn't flexible play in the piping. Therefore, in order to achieve more flexibility, I need to also cut the flanking pipes and adjoin them with shark bites. By freeing up all three pipes in unision, it will allow me to maneuver the piping into the shark bite fitting once the other end is attached.

Watch this video for illustrative purposes. Forward to 7:57. See how he maneuvers the pipe to get it to fit onto the shark bite. I need to create enough flexivility to be able to do that too. Hence me having to cut three pipes and use three different sets of shark bites as a result.



What do you think? Is this a sound strategy? Remember, I do not want to solder under any conditions.

Thanks,

Furry Orca

 

[breplum]

Yes, it is a sound strategy.
I applaud you for choosing a double union PRV.
Double union should be the only PRVs installed, frankly, because they do fail and rebuilding is fraught with pitfalls and (in my case many failed rebuilds). Swappping out is the way to go every time!
I would, instead of buying all sharkbite couplings, buy sharkbite Lever Handle quarter turn ball valves. Your old gate valves are obsolete junk (as are ALL gate valves), so you will have full, positive shut-off capability.
Maybe one coupling for the pipe run on the far left in your photo.
Buy a copper pipe reamer so that you fully ream the i.d. of the copper pipe.
Use a sharpie to mark the depth of each section of pipe where sharkbites will insert, this will confirm you have pushed on full depth.

 

[Furry Orca]

Thanks for that plenitude of wise advice, breplum. I will be sure to implement it. I didn't know that about gate valves.

 

[gagecalman]

Is one of the valves your main shutoff?

 

[Furry Orca]

Is one of the valves your main shutoff?

Not the two shown in the pic. The main shutoff is to the right out of the pic. Actually, there are two shutoffs to the main. There is the one to the right that's not shown in the pic that resides in the housing structure, and then there is the shutoff at the street. The shutoff at the street is a lever handle ball valve. In fact, I once tried to shut off the water to the house with the gated valve to the right that isn't in the pic and to no avail. The gated valve doesn't do it, so I guess it has failed as breplum mentions. This is bothersome because this means the other gated valves shown in the pic probably have failed too and will be useless in preventing water from flowing back from inside the house once I shut off the main at the street. The furthest gated valve to the left in the pic is the shutoff for the cold water line off the main going to the house. The main is the pipe that's perpendicular to the three pipes off of it that run parallel to one another and it's the closest pipe in the pic. It comes out of the garage wall to the right of what's shown in the pic.

This piping complex resides beneath the water heater, fyi. The pipe farthest left in the pic that runs parallel to the other two off of the perpendicular main, is the pipe that leads to the hot water heater. Note that pressure is not regulated for it. Should it be? I'm not sure why it would not be regulated. The pipe furthest to the right that's also parallel to the other two off of the perpendicular main is the pipe leading to the outside hose connection. It doesn't need to be regulated, obviously, and it isn't regulated.

 

[shlasko53]

Use a sawzall to cut up the old one so you can rotate it out.

 

[Furry Orca]

Use a sawzall to cut up the old one so you can rotate it out.

The problem with that is, the replacement PRV then would have to be rotated into place and you're still faced with the same problem — that being the two flanking parallel pipes will impede that process because the new unit is greater in height than the distance between the two flanking parallel pipes.

 

[frodo]

Is that PRV feeding your yard sprinklers?

 

[gagecalman]

I'm not a plumber.
Sweating copper pipe is not difficult at all.
If it were me, I'd turn the water off at the street and replace all of it including the main shutoff gate valve.
If you have a leak you don’t want to have to run out to the street to turn the water off.
I do believe the water going to the water heater should come from the PRV.
Maybe post a picture from a little further back so we understand the complete layout.

 

[Furry Orca]

Thanks for the suggestion, frodo. If an offset is utilized, it will have to be down versus up. Currently, there is not much space between the failed Watts PRV and the bottom of the water heater just above it. There may be ample space to go lower though. I will have to measure to see if my assumption of ample space is correct.

The more I dive into this, the more irate I get with the plumbers who installed this byzantine piping apparatus. They should have their licenses revoked and be prohibited from providing any further plumbing services. This is crap work. No doubt the homebuilder farmed it out to the cheapest bidder, and the cheapest bidder couldn't have cared less about quality and a job well-done. The irony is, the homebuilder bothered enough to use copper in the house versus pvc, and they bragged about that fact and rightfully so, yet they used substandard plumbers to plumb the house with the premium copper piping. Idiocy. Cheap idiocy.

I agree with you about using teflon tape. I used teflon tape to attach the shark bite adaptors to the new PRV you see in the pic above.

 

[frodo]

Thanks for the suggestion, frodo. If an offset is utilized, it will have to be down versus up. Currently, there is not much space between the failed Watts PRV and the bottom of the water heater just above it. There may be ample space to go lower though. I will have to measure to see if my assumption of ample space is correct.

The more I dive into this, the more irate I get with the plumbers who installed this byzantine piping apparatus. They should have their licenses revoked and be prohibited from providing any further plumbing services. This is crap work. No doubt the homebuilder farmed it out to the cheapest bidder, and the cheapest bidder couldn't have cared less about quality and a job well-done. The irony is, the homebuilder bothered enough to use copper in the house versus pvc, and they bragged about that fact and rightfully so, yet they used substandard plumbers to plumb the house with the premium copper piping. Idiocy. Cheap idiocy.

I agree with you about using teflon tape. I used teflon tape to attach the shark bite adaptors to the new PRV you see in the pic above.

LOL I deleted that after I saw you could not offset upg up

chop that middle line, route the pipe out from under the water heater
then back

 

[Furry Orca]

I'm not a plumber.
Sweating copper pipe is not difficult at all.
If it were me, I'd turn the water off at the street and replace all of it including the main shutoff gate valve.
If you have a leak you don’t want to have to run out to the street to turn the water off.
I do believe the water going to the water heater should come from the PRV.
Maybe post a picture from a little further back so we understand the complete layout.

I'm leaning to your suggestion that the entire apparatus needs to be reconfigured and replaced from the main coming out of the wall. This makes the project much larger than I anticipated and proper planning is crucial to avoid water off downtime. I want effective shutoff valves and I want to be able to replace this new PRV with ease when it fails in 7 to 12 years as they are wont to do.

I am also currently accepting quotes from various local plumbers. They are all over the place and some, or many, are non-committal or not specific on what will be provided as part of the estimate.

Here are some of the responses I have recieved.

Sorry for the delay in responding to your inquiry.

After review of your pictures, please make sure the PRV that you are providing matches the one that is presently installed to avoid a system malfunction. The approximate price for labor only is $297 to $397. The plumber will make the final decision.

How much you want to bet the plumber's final decision is $397 with no guarantee for ease of replacing the PRV in the future? I gave this company a detailed write-up like I did here and it's clear this fella didn't pay attention. The existing apparatus does not accommodate easy, direct, exact replacement, therefore, using an exact matching unit is irrelevant.

Here's another quote. This guy acknowledges that this setup is idiotic, or at least that sentiment is implicit in his reply, when he indicates the difficulty involved in replacing the PRV per this setup that he has run across before in his travels. He agrees to using the new PRV I procured, but his fee is high as far as I'm concerned, especially if you consider he doesn't commit to redoing the entire apparatus versus just the PRV replacement.

I have changed PRVs in that exact same setup and they are very difficult. It is located under the water heater in the garage if I’m not mistaken. I normally charge $450 to change a PRV and I buy the PRV. This one will remain $450 even though you already have the PRV simply because of the difficulties that come with it. Let us know if you want to move forward with this.

 

[havasu]

I'd recommend that you continue with more quotes, but be specific and tell them you want a price to FIX that horrible plumbing and install a new PRV, as Frodo (Brian) suggested

 

[frodo]

Is that PRV feeding just your yard sprinklers? ?????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[gagecalman]

Maybe a few more pics would help us understand.

 

[Furry Orca]

Maybe a few more pics would help us understand.

I agree.

Here's a better pic of the current configuration.



Here's my crude schematic for a new configuration that allows the line to the hot water heater to be pressure regulated too. It minimizes the number of bends.



It's my wife's note pad, hence the flowers. Fyi, the main is 1/2 inch as is the pipe to the outside front hose connection. The other two pipes, to the home interior and to the hot water heater, are 3/4 inch. I will need to use a T connector off the main. One end will connect to the main at 1/2 inch, another end will connect to the pipe to the outside hose connection at a 1/2 inch and the final end will connect to an extender 3/4 pipe that will be long enough to easily accommodate the new PRV. Does such a copper T connector exist? Also, what is denoted as gated valves will be replaced by handle ball valves.

What do you think?

 

[Furry Orca]

Is that PRV feeding just your yard sprinklers? ?????????????????????????????????????????????

Haha! It feeds the cold water to the house. The hot water heater is apparently receiving full pressure from the street which is greater than 200 psi. I put the gauge to the front hose connection and it exceeded 200 psi. The back hose connection, which is regulated, is the one that experiences 73 psi to 79 psi with spikes to 90 psi and drops to 32 psi. My gauge only goes to 200 psi and the needle wanted to go farther on the front hose connection keeping in mind the front hose connection is fed by the 1/2 inch pipe furthest to the right in the pics. I'm surprised the hot water heater has withstood this kind of unregulated pressure all these years. It's an 18-year-old AO Smith. Built tough, presumably.

 

[gagecalman]

I don't understand the left pipe going to the WH. It should be after the PRV.
How about a pic of the top of the WH?

 

[Furry Orca]

I don't understand the left pipe going to the WH. It should be after the PRV.
How about a pic of the top of the WH?

Sure. I will provide it in a second. I followed this pipe's route and it indeed goes through the back wall and up to the water heater. Like you, I couldn't believe it wasn't regulated. It's as though no one checked this plumber's work when he installed this cluster f.

 

[Furry Orca]

Also, on the cement floor below, there are markings for which pipe is which. You can see from the new pic above, below the furthest left pipe written on the floor is hose. That pipe traces to the front hose connector. What's not in the pic is writing on the cement floor beneath the furthest left pipe that says hot water heater or something to that effect in shorthand.