Galvanized pipe- required to remove it?

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

All Comers was the result of outlawing redlining in Michigan. But, there are very unfair loop holes in it- plus many work-arounds. My parents still could not get home nor car insurance after redlining ended- no matter how much they wanted to pay.

The Hartford, as an agent explained to me, does not write home, car or business policies in Detroit's Bagley district & several others. Nor do they write in any part of Highland Park or Hamtramck. A few years ago, no one could get insurance in the Cass Corridor. Now that it is all preppied up, the insurance companies are back, but only for the new loft preppies. Not for the real people. I'd imagine that same kind of location discrimination goes on in Flint & Pontiac.
And the insurance companies get away with it, despite no redlining. We all lose because Michigan's Uninsured Motorist Fund and PIP costs are huge to make up for uninsured drivers.

No doubt about it, insurance is really all f&$@%# up in Michigan, certainly contributing to our exit. (And the never ending winters) When we completed our move here in 2020, our auto insurance which was over $6,000 in Michigan for three new leased Fords dropped to just over $2,000 in NC. While we pay a lower amount here in NC for homeowners insurance the homes value here is greater than the two homes we once owned in Michigan combined.

I believe it’s been reformed after we left, but Michigan was the only state in the country where payouts in catastrophic claims for auto injuries had no limits. That caused each car insurance policy to have, when we were there, a $175 assessment that was mandatory. So for the idiots who didn’t wear seatbelts or motorcyclists who didn’t wear helmets and suffer catastrophic injuries, Michigan had your bad choices covered.

As we were leaving the people had had enough and insurance reforms started. Don’t know how it would have affected us if we were still there. Assuming it’s still all messed up in other ways.

 

[Ludington]

Quote From Luddintgon: None of my romex is pass through. All stapled to bottom of floor joists
Starting in 1965, NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code) has required NM to be run through bored holes or on running boards if smaller than (2) #6 or (3) #8. If anyone complains, it'll be easy to add running boards.

I'm not a residential electrician (industrial and distribution only) and have never worked residential, so maybe there are exceptions that I don't know about. I do know the size for running on the bottom changed about the year 2000, but I don't remember the new rule. (Two #6 or larger, I think) Hopefully a residential electrician on the site will correct me if I'm wrong.

Paul

My electrical inspection was done in 1984, everything passed except a strain relief was missing from the pressure switch on my well pump. I would presume stapling to the bottom of the floor joists was acceptable then. I'll have to get my old code book out and check if there is anything in there. (If I can find it... )

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Quote From Mitchell DIY Guy: I believe it’s been reformed after we left, but Michigan was the only state in the country where payouts in catastrophic claims for auto injuries had no limits.
Unfortunately, it's still unlimited. Get drunk, get in an accident that was not your fault, the sky is the limit on tort damages as well as medical & work loss payouts- even though if you were sober you would have avoided the collision. My Catastrophic Claims Fund tax was 228.00 per car this year. PIP was even higher- $325.00 per vehicle.

Wayne County, the one that houses Detroit, consistently has the highest jury payouts for civil cases in the whole nation. It is treasured to present auto injury cases here. Drive the freeways in Detroit & check the incessant billboards for auto injury lawyers. My favorite is the guy whose phone number is "1-800-Car-Hit-You". He's got a billboard every 1/4 mile in Detroit.

And, now we no longer have to have unlimited medical coverage on auto policies. If you get hurt & don't have the auto medical, the state will take care of you- forever if needed. Income, too.

People in Michigan's legislative, executive and judicial branches have their campaigns heavily funded by the insurance companies. This is why our insurance laws are so very different than the rest of the nation and world. The insurance companies have it made here, including health insurers. (The next largest campaign contributor & lobby group in Michigan are the 3 big players in the road building industry. Drive Michigan's roads and you'll know why this isn't a great plan.)

 

[Bird Doo Head]

From Gym Bag:
IIRC, installing a piece of wood alongside of the exposed ROMEX may be acceptable because it prevents hanging something from just the ROMEX, like laundry. I know that low voltage cabling can be run underneath framing because, as the IEEE description is written, 'No Lethal Voltage is Present'.


I'm not a residental electrician, but I think it's allowed to put the running board up and staple the NM to the board. In the "way back" days, NM was often stapled to the bottom of the joist with a strip of 1 x 2 running along each side of it.

installing a piece of wood alongside of the exposed ROMEX may be acceptable because it prevents hanging something from just the ROMEX, like laundry.
As opposed to hanging stuff from the NM that is run through bored holes? Around here, if something can have an object hung on it, it's gonna wind up having something hung on it. And empty horizontal surfaces are prohibited. Can't win!


You mentioned IIRC and IEEE. Be sure to check which code your jurisdiction is compliant with.
In most U.S. jurisdictions, NFPA 70 is the ruling text for electrical work. ("National Electrical Code")

Often, however, jurisdictions have certain codes for certain situations to over-rule or supplement NFPA 70. An example is a state, city or county's residential electrical code. Michigan's Residential Electrical Code and Chicago's Cook County electrical codes are examples.

When I worked as a high voltage linesman, IEEE was the basis of our safety manual, but not a code. (Distribution didn't have a code. Just a "Greenbook".) I don't know if anyone uses IIRC as the rule for electrical.

 

[GymBag]

None of my romex is pass through. All stapled to bottom of floor joists and run up to outlets and switches. Unless it's changed, no code against it here in York county, sc. When I installed it, I didn't want to cheese hole all of my joists. Pipes too, under the joists.

AFAIK, NEC requires drilling through unless something is installed, to support the Romex in the same way it's required in an attic within about 3' of a scuttle hole when it crosses ceiling joists (to prevent someone walking on it).

As long as holes are within the middle 1/3 of the joist height, they're allowable but absolutely not in the bottom 1/3 because that's where the joist is under the most tension.

 

[GymBag]

From Gym Bag:
IIRC, installing a piece of wood alongside of the exposed ROMEX may be acceptable because it prevents hanging something from just the ROMEX, like laundry. I know that low voltage cabling can be run underneath framing because, as the IEEE description is written, 'No Lethal Voltage is Present'.


I'm not a residental electrician, but I think it's allowed to put the running board up and staple the NM to the board. In the "way back" days, NM was often stapled to the bottom of the joist with a strip of 1 x 2 running along each side of it.

installing a piece of wood alongside of the exposed ROMEX may be acceptable because it prevents hanging something from just the ROMEX, like laundry.
As opposed to hanging stuff from the NM that is run through bored holes? Around here, if something can have an object hung on it, it's gonna wind up having something hung on it. And empty horizontal surfaces are prohibited. Can't win!


You mentioned IIRC and IEEE. Be sure to check which code your jurisdiction is compliant with.
In most U.S. jurisdictions, NFPA 70 is the ruling text for electrical work. ("National Electrical Code")

Often, however, jurisdictions have certain codes for certain situations to over-rule or supplement NFPA 70. An example is a state, city or county's residential electrical code. Michigan's Residential Electrical Code and Chicago's Cook County electrical codes are examples.

When I worked as a high voltage linesman, IEEE was the basis of our safety manual, but not a code. (Distribution didn't have a code. Just a "Greenbook".) I don't know if anyone uses IIRC as the rule for electrical.

Since I work in low voltage, IEEE is the agency that governs what I do and it does include specs for high voltage, but you're right- what I called NEC (based on referring to it online) is what my friends who are/were architects and electrical engineers who were involved in this kind of work called it, or it was referred to as 'code'.

Apparently, many places don't want to specify much in the structural/electrical areas that could put them in a position of liability in the event that something goes wrong- they would rather just say "Do it according to THEIR code" and sit there with the power of the AHJ.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Here’s some damage on a roughly 15 yr old house due to a galvanized nipple rusting out in the wall.

 

[GymBag]

Here’s some damage on a roughly 15 yr old house due to a galvanized nipple rusting out in the wall.

View attachment 42150View attachment 42152View attachment 42153View attachment 42154View attachment 42155View attachment 42156

If that hose bib is Brass, the nipple probably failed because it should have had a dielectric fitting- this prevents/reduces galvanic corrosion when dissimilar metals are connected.

 

[Twowaxhack]

If that hose bib is Brass, the nipple probably failed because it should have had a dielectric fitting- this prevents/reduces galvanic corrosion when dissimilar metals are connected.

https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/join-galvanized-pipe-to-copper-pipe/

Brass and steel play fine together.

The house is piped in pex.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Dielectric unions for water are pointless IMO.

The current passes through the water as the dissimilar metals are an inch apart.

Water chemistry has a big role in it all.

I’ve had better luck with long brass nipples between copper and steel.

They may work better for stray electrical current from a poorly ground electrical system but for dissimilar metals they’re crap.

 

[Twowaxhack]

People need to realize that most of the people who write these articles are writers. They read material then just parrot what it says elsewhere on the internet.

No real life experience is what I’m saying.

There’s a very popular website on the internet that has all types of plumbing info and electrical info. People post links to it on a regular basis across many forums such as this one.

I’ve personally emailed this website on a couple of incorrect statements and they’ve changed the information on the web.

Why was the info wrong ?

Because the guy has really no idea what he’s talking about and gathers info from around the web and posts it as facts, and it’s not correct. He copied bad info from somewhere and has zero experience so he doesn’t know it was wrong.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Here’s an article blaming the poor performance of dielectric unions on the installer or “ short isolation sleeves “

https://homeinspectiongeeks.com/why-dielectric-unions-are-common-failure-points-in-water-heaters/
Total bull crap. A monkey can install them correctly and short sleeved shouldn’t matter if the metal doesn’t touch.

They suck and I’d never use them on my water heater or anyone else’s water heater.

The plastic lined nipples are also garbage. They’re thin, probably sch20 and water leaks between the nipple and the plastic liner. Then the nipple Will rust out and they can be very difficult to replace, some are impossible to replace without destroying the top of the water heater, as they are 6” long.

 

[GymBag]

People need to realize that most of the people who write these articles are writers. They read material then just parrot what it says elsewhere on the internet.

No real life experience is what I’m saying.

There’s a very popular website on the internet that has all types of plumbing info and electrical info. People post links to it on a regular basis across many forums such as this one.

I’ve personally emailed this website on a couple of incorrect statements and they’ve changed the information on the web.

Why was the info wrong ?

Because the guy has really no idea what he’s talking about and gathers info from around the web and posts it as facts, and it’s not correct. He copied bad info from somewhere and has zero experience so he doesn’t know it was wrong.

I should have read deeper into that, or just found a link from a code book.

I'm removing the link, because it's incorrect.

 

[GymBag]

Dielectric unions for water are pointless IMO.

The current passes through the water as the dissimilar metals are an inch apart.

Water chemistry has a big role in it all.

I’ve had better luck with long brass nipples between copper and steel.

They may work better for stray electrical current from a poorly ground electrical system but for dissimilar metals they’re crap.

But, just like the anodes on a boat, the less 'noble' metal will degrade, sacrificially.

 

[GymBag]

No doubt about it, insurance is really all f&$@%# up in Michigan, certainly contributing to our exit. (And the never ending winters) When we completed our move here in 2020, our auto insurance which was over $6,000 in Michigan for three new leased Fords dropped to just over $2,000 in NC. While we pay a lower amount here in NC for homeowners insurance the homes value here is greater than the two homes we once owned in Michigan combined.

I believe it’s been reformed after we left, but Michigan was the only state in the country where payouts in catastrophic claims for auto injuries had no limits. That caused each car insurance policy to have, when we were there, a $175 assessment that was mandatory. So for the idiots who didn’t wear seatbelts or motorcyclists who didn’t wear helmets and suffer catastrophic injuries, Michigan had your bad choices covered.

As we were leaving the people had had enough and insurance reforms started. Don’t know how it would have affected us if we were still there. Assuming it’s still all messed up in other ways.

WI is a 'no fault' state and personally, I think that's BS, but since insurance shares the pain among all policyholders, we all pay more than we should if we're safe drivers, don't do stupid things with our vehicles (like leave the keys inside or in the ignition switch, etc) that create more risk for the insurer. The thing that annoys me is the lack of effort from the insurance industry in making Kia/Hyundai change their cars so they're harder to steal. That alone has enabled tens of thousands of thefts, which often involve young teenagers who want street cred and when the police show up, they flee- this has resulted in thousands of crashes and many fatalities.

Six grand? And paying just over $1000/year made me switch to a different insurance company. I pay far less, now.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Dielectric unions for water are pointless IMO.

The current passes through the water as the dissimilar metals are an inch apart.

Water chemistry has a big role in it all.

I’ve had better luck with long brass nipples between copper and steel.

They may work better for stray electrical current from a poorly ground electrical system but for dissimilar metals they’re crap.

On large, industrial boilers & small house units that I've serviced the diaelectric tend to unions fail. The gasket eventually dries, cracks and then weeps. Minerals bridge the locking ring and eventually eat the steel.

Yet- On sealed system hydronic boilers, copper-to-steel lasts forever and even unscrews easily. I've taken apart fittings that were in service more than 80 years.

The reasons for that are:
A) There is no air in the water, thus no oxygen.
B) The piping is well bonded and at the same potential. It's typically grounded well, too.
C) On some systems, molybdate or similar is installed. This helps if air is sneaking in due to leaks & make up water.

Paul
PS: Thanks for the excellent advice, Twowaxhack about a long, brass nipple. Sounds perfect.

 

[GymBag]

Returning to the insurance part- I asked my homeowner's insurance agent to explain why my rate is increasing 44% and he wanted to argue that it increased by 25% and the rest of the increase is for the multi-policy discount that I lost when I switched the carrier for auto. Increases in losses and all of that crap....Zero claims since I signed up with Allstate and while I know and sympathize with people in hurricane/fire/flood zones, rebuilding several times after multiple events? Not my problem.

FWIW, insurance rates increased drastically in about '95 and the explanation was- "The insurance industry made some bad investments". That's not our problem, that's THEIR problem.

I guess I needed to explain that my old payment/new payment=44%.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

...insurance industry in making Kia/Hyundai change their cars so they're harder to steal.

There is movement afoot to do that, not necessarily from insurance but from states and from Kia/Hyundai themselves. These two makes/models had this problem on the cheap as all get out pieces of crap. No sympathy from me. You get what you pay for. Anybody could have put in a steering wheel lock or other device but they don't. Reminds me of the time when Yugo came here. The mainstream auto press told people they'd be better off spending the money on a good used car, not a Yugo. It wasn't very good when designed as a Fiat, and was worse built behind the iron curtain.

Six grand? And paying just over $1000/year made me switch to a different insurance company. I pay far less, now.

From Autoinsurance.com:​

"Michigan​

Michigan, for years, had one of the most comprehensive no-fault auto insurance systems in the United States. It also has the most expensive auto insurance in the country.

Michigan has the most expensive auto insurance in the nation, according to CarInsurance.com’s rate analysis. Michigan’s average annual premium for full coverage is $2,158 — almost $291 higher than the national average of $1,867."

Believe me when I tell you we shopped it around annually, and we used every discount imaginable. That $6K per year for three vehicles (Ford Flex, Edge and Escape) was the least.

It was a welcome thing to move to NC. Insurance is normalized. It's the DMV here that's all f-ed up.

 

[Ludington]

Just as a point of interest, my rate for full coverage was 1384 for 3 vehicals, 2021 Toyota hybrid, 2016 f150 , and 2004 chevy avalanche. Been thinking that was pretty good. Just waiting now for the brick to fall for the next round, been hearing its going to go up pretty good. (Auto Owners policy)

 

[Bird Doo Head]

FWIW, insurance rates increased drastically in about '95 and the explanation was- "The insurance industry made some bad investments". That's not our problem, that's THEIR problem.

I guess I needed to explain that my old payment/new payment=44%.

That is just, plain wrong. Perhaps their new slogan should be "We Goofed. You Lose"

If I invest in stocks and they go down 44%, can I tell the insurance company that I'm paying them 44% less than the invoice because I made some bad investments?