Galvanized pipe- required to remove it?

[GymBag]

I was comparing homeowner's insurance rates with several companies and one told me that if a house has galvanized pipe, they won't insure it. Has anyone heard of this and does the most recent plumbing code address this as a mandatory step in remodeling?

My house was built (badly) in 1946 and suffered from subsequent (even worse) remodeling- the plumbing is a nightmare, with hidden hot AND cold water valves for the 1st floor bathroom which I have been replacing as I go along and I'm currently working on that bathroom. I also found an electrical J-box inside of the same wall- it had a short piece of Romex that was connected to the box & outlet at the right of the kitchen counter and it could have been wired correctly, but the homeowner at that time owned a used car lot, so....

The plumbing in the basement is a clusterflop and I'm thinking of cleaning it up, but it has copper and galvanized, so I would like to do it right.

Aside from the bathroom, should I leave the basement for the next homeowner?

Thanks.

 

[Twowaxhack]

They have the right to make you meet their demands or not provide insurance.

So yes, I’ve heard of it before.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

There's more to homeowner's insurance than galvanized piping. Homes of a certain age may have aluminum wiring. They may have Federal Pacific Stab-Loc breaker service panels. They may be sided with InsulBric. They may have inadequate ancient and original fuseboxes, such as a 60A service with glass fuses! (the latter lending itself to homeowner modifications) These are all known to be fire hazards and if the insurance company knows about them they will rightfully deny writing a policy.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Maybe it's not really the pipe that will cause the problem. It may be the insurance company trying not to insure in your area. Because the practice of Redlining was outlawed, some insurance companies seek excuses to refuse coverage for houses in certain areas. When we lived in Detroit's so called "Inner City" and no one could get home insurance due to redlining. After Redlining was outlawed, the excuse not to insure was because we had oil fired boiler. After changing it to gas, the excuse shifted to galvanized piping. And so on forever...

If you hit a brick wall trying to get insurance, a company called "The Hartford" didn't complain about the galvanized that was in my current house when I bought it. When I re-piped to copper and sent photos, they lowered my premium quite a bit. (Same when I replaced the electrical service and removed knob-and-tube)

On the chance that you are 50 years old or wiser, going to The Hartford through AARP saved us a bunch of money on premiums. We shop every year for car & home insurance and, through AARP, they always are lowest by at least $400.00 for identical coverage. Without AARP, some companies are lower, some higher.

Best of Luck With Your Projects!
Paul

PS:
For safety and future troubleshooting, it's important to eliminate the hidden junction box that you found. (For Code compliance, too)
As far as leaving the plumbing for the next owner, the decision may come down to how much time do you have to invest versus how much lower a sale price will you tolerate.
A potential buyer may see the plumbing and not care, or she may get a quote and ask you to lower the price of the house that amount.
Also note that if you re-pipe your choice may not be acceptable to a buyer. A neighbor re-piped with copper and two buyers stipulated it be changed to PEX. I'd guess if you use PEX, someone may complain and want copper.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Maybe it's not really the pipe that will cause the problem. It may be the insurance company trying not to insure in your area. Because the practice of Redlining was outlawed, some insurance companies seek excuses to refuse coverage for houses in certain areas. When we lived in Detroit's so called "Inner City" and no one could get home insurance due to redlining. After Redlining was outlawed, the excuse not to insure was because we had oil fired boiler. After changing it to gas, the excuse shifted to galvanized piping. And so on forever...

Michigan has an "all comers" law when it comes to insurance. So, if you offer any insurance to anyone in the state, your company must offer ALL your INSURANCE to EVERYONE in the state. This is problematic since it forces some companies to write policies in area where the loss rate is high. You cannot offer homeowners insurance in Bloomfield Hills (high per capita zip code) and not offer it in the inner city of Detroit. So, they have to get creative in not writing policies in areas where losses will be high. Could be crime, could be old homes, (or the other things you mention...)

My homeowner's insurance here in North Carolina is quite reasonable and a great company to work with. Erie Insurance. They don't write policies in CA (earthquakes, wildfires) and they don't write in Michigan (that all comers law) and they don't write in Florida (hurricanes). They write in the states where there are no peculiar laws that force them to do things they don't want or where there are few natural disasters.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I had a insurance company that told me I had to cut down a small tree they said was too close to my house.

I never cut it down and if any damage results because of the tree I’m sure they won’t cover it.

I’ve had several jobs where insurance companies have requested work be done . Polybutylene replaced, water heater pans installed, stainless braid flex lines replaced.

 

[Ludington]

I had a insurance company that told me I had to cut down a small tree they said was too close to my house.

I never cut it down and if any damage results because of the tree I’m sure they won’t cover it.

I’ve had several jobs where insurance companies have requested work be done . Polybutylene replaced, water heater pans installed, stainless braid flex lines replaced.

Question : braided stainless flex lines ? What is wrong with them ? And Gymbag mentioned hidden water valves, is that against code ? I know I put some in the walls by my shower and washing machine, just so I could turn off the water there without shutting down the house. They are behind removable panels, but you wouldn't know they are there unless you took the panels off to get to the guts of the plumbing.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

From Mitchell: Michigan has an "all comers" law when it comes to insurance. So, if you offer any insurance to anyone in the state, your company must offer ALL your INSURANCE to EVERYONE in the state.
All Comers was the result of outlawing redlining in Michigan. But, there are very unfair loop holes in it- plus many work-arounds. My parents still could not get home nor car insurance after redlining ended- no matter how much they wanted to pay.

The Hartford, as an agent explained to me, does not write home, car or business policies in Detroit's Bagley district & several others. Nor do they write in any part of Highland Park or Hamtramck. A few years ago, no one could get insurance in the Cass Corridor. Now that it is all preppied up, the insurance companies are back, but only for the new loft preppies. Not for the real people. I'd imagine that same kind of location discrimination goes on in Flint & Pontiac.

Also, the rates vary to stop people from buying policies. One of my brothers drives the exact same truck as I drive. We are similar age. Our records are both clean. He lives a few miles south of me and his truck insurance is more than FIVE times that of mine at close to $13,000.00 per year for two vehicles. (Exact policy match of declarations & deductibles.)

Our homes' rebuilding costs are within 10-k of each other, yet his homeowner's insurance is FOUR times that of mine for identical coverages & liabilities. He's over $10,000.00 per year. Even though the houses' sell for more than my neighborhood, the crime is higher, so the insurance is higher.
No Redlining My Eye!

And the insurance companies get away with it, despite no redlining. We all lose because Michigan's Uninsured Motorist Fund and PIP costs are huge to make up for uninsured drivers.

My business insurance (not Hartford) actually has riders voiding my inland marine (physical property) coverage in certain areas, but not others.

I sure wandered from GymBag's original question. Personally, I'd leave the plumbing if it is working. There is no need to spend your time and money replacing it on something that may not matter to a buyer.
The electrical, I would absolutely repair properly.

 

[GymBag]

There's more to homeowner's insurance than galvanized piping. Homes of a certain age may have aluminum wiring. They may have Federal Pacific Stab-Loc breaker service panels. They may be sided with InsulBric. They may have inadequate ancient and original fuseboxes, such as a 60A service with glass fuses! (the latter lending itself to homeowner modifications) These are all known to be fire hazards and if the insurance company knows about them they will rightfully deny writing a policy.

The house has been sold since the glass fuses were replaced and it has 200A service since it's a duplex. It does have Aluminum wiring, but I disrupt it as seldom as possible and usually, only if I open a wall to make replacement of a section possible. The insulation on the wire in the box that was hidden was crumbling, so I covered it and made sure it won't be a problem but I have replaced some of it- when it was built, the house didn't have many circuits but many were separated when the new panel was installed- it has passed inspections. The panel has SquareD breakers, not Stab-Loc.

At least it's not knob & tube.....

I understand not wanting to insure a pending hazard but I haven't heard of many problems with galvanized pipe causing giant insurance claims. When I talked to my friend who's a plumber, I asked about this and he hasn't had many replacements due to leaking, but that could be due to the fact that most of his work is in relatively newer homes, although we have worked on some of the same places that were built between 1905 and 1925. I do low voltage work (Audio/Video, Home Theater, Voice/Data) and the homes are usually a real challenge for wiring and plumbing, but interesting when we see how they were built. My place is a challenge, but the construction was done very poorly in many ways- I swear I went blind when I looked at it before purchase....

 

[GymBag]

Maybe it's not really the pipe that will cause the problem. It may be the insurance company trying not to insure in your area. Because the practice of Redlining was outlawed, some insurance companies seek excuses to refuse coverage for houses in certain areas. When we lived in Detroit's so called "Inner City" and no one could get home insurance due to redlining. After Redlining was outlawed, the excuse not to insure was because we had oil fired boiler. After changing it to gas, the excuse shifted to galvanized piping. And so on forever...

If you hit a brick wall trying to get insurance, a company called "The Hartford" didn't complain about the galvanized that was in my current house when I bought it. When I re-piped to copper and sent photos, they lowered my premium quite a bit. (Same when I replaced the electrical service and removed knob-and-tube)

On the chance that you are 50 years old or wiser, going to The Hartford through AARP saved us a bunch of money on premiums. We shop every year for car & home insurance and, through AARP, they always are lowest by at least $400.00 for identical coverage. Without AARP, some companies are lower, some higher.

Best of Luck With Your Projects!
Paul

PS:
For safety and future troubleshooting, it's important to eliminate the hidden junction box that you found. (For Code compliance, too)
As far as leaving the plumbing for the next owner, the decision may come down to how much time do you have to invest versus how much lower a sale price will you tolerate.
A potential buyer may see the plumbing and not care, or she may get a quote and ask you to lower the price of the house that amount.
Also note that if you re-pipe your choice may not be acceptable to a buyer. A neighbor re-piped with copper and two buyers stipulated it be changed to PEX. I'd guess if you use PEX, someone may complain and want copper.

I'm in a suburb of Milwaukee and redlining doesn't happen in this area. I have insurance but when I heard the comment about galvanized pipe, it was when I was shopping for better rates- I had been with Allstate for at least ten years and they refused to budge on my premium, even though I have had only one speeding ticket since the late-'80s and only two towing claims since I started with them. I drive a 2005 Astro cargo van which is not exactly a dragster- I was tired of paying too much and while they said "That's what everyone will charge", it's not what I found- the first one was 40% less and the one I picked is less than half, even though I sent the Declarations page for the policy to each, so they could be on an even playing field. The reason I had asked about homeowner's insurance is because I wanted to get the break in premiums from bundling.

Someone will always want something else- I was in audio/AV sales for a couple of decades and part of the problem is due to the buyer's 'expert' buddy, who knows everything about everything. I have read in construction forums that mice like to chew on PEX, but that begs the question "Why didn't the homeowner do anything about the mice?".

FWIW, the bathroom I'm working on was remodeled in the early-'80s and they ran the copper pipes horizontally in the wall that's shared with the kitchen- it would have been much easier to go up from the basement for the sink, toilet and tub, but NOOOOOO!, that didn't fit the guy's MO. For him, it was "Do it fast, do it cheap and run away". One of the joints leaked inside of the wall, eventually, and I'm the lucky one to has to deal with it.

When they remodeled and re-plumbed, they also butchered the framing, so I had to deal with that, too. However, the underlayment that was installed at the time? Dead level.

 

[GymBag]

Question : braided stainless flex lines ? What is wrong with them ? And Gymbag mentioned hidden water valves, is that against code ? I know I put some in the walls by my shower and washing machine, just so I could turn off the water there without shutting down the house. They are behind removable panels, but you wouldn't know they are there unless you took the panels off to get to the guts of the plumbing.

Your hidden valves are behind removable panels, these weren't. I might not have minded, but every time I find some of that previous owner's magic, I just roll my eyes and say "Typical".

 

[GymBag]

From Mitchell: Michigan has an "all comers" law when it comes to insurance. So, if you offer any insurance to anyone in the state, your company must offer ALL your INSURANCE to EVERYONE in the state.
All Comers was the result of outlawing redlining in Michigan. But, there are very unfair loop holes in it- plus many work-arounds. My parents still could not get home nor car insurance after redlining ended- no matter how much they wanted to pay.

The Hartford, as an agent explained to me, does not write home, car or business policies in Detroit's Bagley district & several others. Nor do they write in any part of Highland Park or Hamtramck. A few years ago, no one could get insurance in the Cass Corridor. Now that it is all preppied up, the insurance companies are back, but only for the new loft preppies. Not for the real people. I'd imagine that same kind of location discrimination goes on in Flint & Pontiac.

Also, the rates vary to stop people from buying policies. One of my brothers drives the exact same truck as I drive. We are similar age. Our records are both clean. He lives a few miles south of me and his truck insurance is more than FIVE times that of mine at close to $13,000.00 per year for two vehicles. (Exact policy match of declarations & deductibles.)

Our homes' rebuilding costs are within 10-k of each other, yet his homeowner's insurance is FOUR times that of mine for identical coverages & liabilities. He's over $10,000.00 per year. Even though the houses' sell for more than my neighborhood, the crime is higher, so the insurance is higher.
No Redlining My Eye!

And the insurance companies get away with it, despite no redlining. We all lose because Michigan's Uninsured Motorist Fund and PIP costs are huge to make up for uninsured drivers.

My business insurance (not Hartford) actually has riders voiding my inland marine (physical property) coverage in certain areas, but not others.

I sure wandered from GymBag's original question. Personally, I'd leave the plumbing if it is working. There is no need to spend your time and money replacing it on something that may not matter to a buyer.
The electrical, I would absolutely repair properly.

I'm 66 and have received a lot of offers from The Hartford, telling me that they can shave hundreds from my auto premium but when I called, they said they don't write insurance for cargo or conversion vans. What the what? The single largest group who drives conversion vans is seniors and the Hartford is the preferred insurer for AARP, but they don't write for those people.......

I'm not a big fan of the insurance industry because I was treated like a farm animal when State Farm settled on my stolen Mazda RX-7. Oddly enough, when it was stolen, I was at a club on Milwaukee's East side with friends and two of us were talking about insurance. I commented on how it's really a scam and then, said "Now watch, I'll walk outside and my car will be gone".

Last time I do something like that.

WRT leaving the plumbing, I'm planning to replace a lot of the pipe that's under the first floor because it's accessible and it won't be very difficult. If I remodel the 2nd floor bath, I'll probably replace the one galvanized pipe that remains- the other has already been replaced with copper and it looks OK.

I did some electrical work in the garage that was built in about 2004, as well as in the basement- the inspector complimented the work and I had the presence of mind to NOT thank him since homeowners aren't allowed to do our own electrical work. I had removed a couple of sections and cleaned up the mess that was down there and because it was all below the joists and ROMEX is supposed to pass through, I used & bent the conduit. Inspector thought it looked great.

Because the plumbing will look new and I'm planning to sell in the near future, I'll get the permit and do it right because the new inspectors here seem to think the city is part of a nightmare HOA- I wanted to build a 4' x 8' bump-out on the rear of my garage, but the city wanted about $200 in permit & inspection fees, so I decided not to do it.

 

[Ludington]

I'm 66 and have received a lot of offers from The Hartford, telling me that they can shave hundreds from my auto premium but when I called, they said they don't write insurance for cargo or conversion vans. What the what? The single largest group who drives conversion vans is seniors and the Hartford is the preferred insurer for AARP, but they don't write for those people.......

I'm not a big fan of the insurance industry because I was treated like a farm animal when State Farm settled on my stolen Mazda RX-7. Oddly enough, when it was stolen, I was at a club on Milwaukee's East side with friends and two of us were talking about insurance. I commented on how it's really a scam and then, said "Now watch, I'll walk outside and my car will be gone".

Last time I do something like that.

WRT leaving the plumbing, I'm planning to replace a lot of the pipe that's under the first floor because it's accessible and it won't be very difficult. If I remodel the 2nd floor bath, I'll probably replace the one galvanized pipe that remains- the other has already been replaced with copper and it looks OK.

I did some electrical work in the garage that was built in about 2004, as well as in the basement- the inspector complimented the work and I had the presence of mind to NOT thank him since homeowners aren't allowed to do our own electrical work. I had removed a couple of sections and cleaned up the mess that was down there and because it was all below the joists and ROMEX is supposed to pass through, I used & bent the conduit. Inspector thought it looked great.

Because the plumbing will look new and I'm planning to sell in the near future, I'll get the permit and do it right because the new inspectors here seem to think the city is part of a nightmare HOA- I wanted to build a 4' x 8' bump-out on the rear of my garage, but the city wanted about $200 in permit & inspection fees, so I decided not to do it.

None of my romex is pass through. All stapled to bottom of floor joists and run up to outlets and switches. Unless it's changed, no code against it here in York county, sc. When I installed it, I didn't want to cheese hole all of my joists. Pipes too, under the joists.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Quote From GymBag: I have read in construction forums that mice like to chew on PEX, but that begs the question "Why didn't the homeowner do anything about the mice?".
Your statement really made sense! (And I laughed when I read it. Simple solution, huh?)
Paul
PS: I have some PEX for a hose bibb very exposed under a cantilevered part of the house and all kinds of mice, chipmunks, squirrels and stuff around. No one ever chewed it- even when they were chewing a hole near it the bottom of the cantilever to make a home inside.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Quote From Luddintgon: None of my romex is pass through. All stapled to bottom of floor joists
Starting in 1965, NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code) has required NM to be run through bored holes or on running boards if smaller than (2) #6 or (3) #8. If anyone complains, it'll be easy to add running boards.

I'm not a residential electrician (industrial and distribution only) and have never worked residential, so maybe there are exceptions that I don't know about. I do know the size for running on the bottom changed about the year 2000, but I don't remember the new rule. (Two #6 or larger, I think) Hopefully a residential electrician on the site will correct me if I'm wrong.

Paul

 

[GymBag]

Quote From Luddintgon: None of my romex is pass through. All stapled to bottom of floor joists
Starting in 1965, NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code) has required NM to be run through bored holes or on running boards if smaller than (2) #6 or (3) #8. If anyone complains, it'll be easy to add running boards.

I'm not a residential electrician (industrial and distribution only) and have never worked residential, so maybe there are exceptions that I don't know about. I do know the size for running on the bottom changed about the year 2000, but I don't remember the new rule. (Two #6 or larger, I think) Hopefully a residential electrician on the site will correct me if I'm wrong.

Paul

IIRC, installing a piece of wood alongside of the exposed ROMEX may be acceptable because it prevents hanging something from just the ROMEX, like laundry. I know that low voltage cabling can be run underneath framing because, as the IEEE description is written, 'No Lethal Voltage is Present'.

 

[Twowaxhack]

IIRC, installing a piece of wood alongside of the exposed ROMEX may be acceptable because it prevents hanging something from just the ROMEX, like laundry. I know that low voltage cabling can be run underneath framing because, as the IEEE description is written, 'No Lethal Voltage is Present'.

I guess I need to tell my wife to stop hanging our clothes from the power line. I had no idea it was against code.

 

[GymBag]

I guess I need to tell my wife to stop hanging our clothes from the power line. I had no idea it was against code.

Next time she does that, lift ALL of the clothes off and if it's a full load, it's going to be heavy. Obviously, power wires can support more weight than communications cabling without being damaged, but over time, it's not helping. If they were taut and now sag, it's time to add something to hang the laundry on- conduit would work and it's cheap.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Next time she does that, lift ALL of the clothes off and if it's a full load, it's going to be heavy. Obviously, power wires can support more weight than communications cabling without being damaged, but over time, it's not helping. If they were taut and now sag, it's time to add something to hang the laundry on- conduit would work and it's cheap.

The powerline is sagging from the pole to the house and she gets the kids to hang the clothes out on it. One had an aluminum ladder out there because he was just a little too short to reach it standing on a garbage can

 

[GymBag]

The powerline is sagging from the pole to the house and she gets the kids to hang the clothes out on it. One had an aluminum ladder out there because he was just a little too short to reach it standing on a garbage can

What's the worst that could happen?

I had a professor who was talking about power drills and how his had developed a short between the field and the Aluminum case. When he squeezed the trigger, he became the load because the drill didn't have a grounded cord and he said his 4 year old daughter started laughing, saying "Ha, ha! Daddy's funny! He's dancing!".