WWYD? Floor damage…

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Client called about a leaky toilet (at the base). Removed the toilet and discovered a bit of damage to the builder’s grade (¼” plank) oak engineered flooring. It’s on a slab. The flange is solid and looks great. Toilet was flat and rigidly mounted.

Guessing that the problem was a wax ring of insufficient depth, and perhaps insufficient funnel into the flange. There’s some wax but not a lot. There’s a plastic funnel attached but small.

Right now it’s all drying out. I will remove the damaged wood. So, what would you do for the repair? Would you use floor patch or would you try to get some kind of wood as a shim?

Photos should be obvious, but one is of the floor flange with the toilet removed and the other is the bottom of the toilet.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Is the flange sitting on top of the finished floor ? Or is the finished flooring cut around the flange ?

 

[MicEd69]

Looks to me like there isn't much wax because the toilet flange is pretty close to the toilet. So, instead of too thin of a wax ring, the problem appears to be the plastic funnel. There appears to be some damage to it and very thin wax at the top of your picture. What is the elevation of the flange relative to the floor?

Twowaxhack doesn't like or use wax rings with funnels, and in this is likely one reason.

Assuming the damage is all under the toilet, I would clean out all the damaged flooring and use some concrete floor patching material.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Is the flange sitting on top of the finished floor ? Or is the finished flooring cut around the flange ?

Prior to the leaking damage, yes--the floor flange is (was) sitting on top of the finish flooring.
As a reminder the "finish flooring" is about ¼", maybe 5/16" oak engineered, laid directly on top of concrete; first floor powder room, home built on a concrete slab.
With the wood now damaged and rotted away, most of the flange is sitting above the concrete; In other words, there's a gap the thickness of the finish floor between the concrete base and the toilet flange.

I would imagine that some means of support needs to be tucked under the flange. Is that support a wood flooring/shim the same thickness as original? Of would floor patch do the trick?

Because the flange and drain assembly is set in concrete there's no movement; it's rigid.

FWIW, I did NOT clean any of the wax off either the flange or the toilet; what you see is what was there.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Pour anchoring cement to fill in the space. Mix it according to directions. It’ll be like water but it’ll set in 15 minutes.

Flex the flange with a paint scraper, make sure the flange isn’t cracked. The flange can be cracked and you can’t see it. When the toilet nuts are tightened down this flexes the flange and the crack opens up. So make sure there isn’t a crack that not showing itself.

Use a thick wax without a horn. Sometimes I’ll warm up two regular wax seals with hot water and mold them into one thicker wax and install it. You want the wax soft so it’ll mold out o the flange and toilet well, but not so soft it’s melted.

Clean everything with denatured alcohol or a good cleaner. Get all the old wax off. This will also help you find a hidden crack.

Now Venmo me.

The ole TwoWaxHack……

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Pour anchoring cement to fill in the space. Mix it according to directions. It’ll be like water but it’ll set in 15 minutes.

Flex the flange with a paint scraper, make sure the flange isn’t cracked. The flange can be cracked and you can’t see it. When the toilet nuts are tightened down this flexes the flange and the crack opens up. So make sure there isn’t a crack that not showing itself.

Use a thick wax without a horn. Sometimes I’ll warm up two regular wax seals with hot water and mold them into one thicker wax and install it. You want the wax soft so it’ll mold out o the flange and toilet well, but not so soft it’s melted.

Clean everything with denatured alcohol or a good cleaner. Get all the old wax off. This will also help you find a hidden crack.

Now Venmo me.

The ole TwoWaxHack……

Venmo or Zelle?

The only “thick” wax rings I found had the horn on them. Will get two regular hornless for the Two Wax Hack. Just for fun I carefully read the packages of the wax rings and related with the horn. They all indicated they were for flanges set below the finish floor. This is set above.

The floor leveler I found is a 4 hour set. The “anchoring cement” sounds interesting. Assuming you mean something like Quik-Crete??

Good advice on carefully checking for a flange crack. While I would have given it a glance now will pay some serious attention and some serious cleaning too—

Thanks for the detailed guidance. Will take some photos for the crowd here…

 

[Twowaxhack]

I use quickrete anchoring cement. Lowes or the Depot have it.
https://www.acehardware.com/departm...Vok9HAR1JXQpJEAQYAiABEgJUpvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
I like these wax seals.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Fluidma...MI5NWVq4HZgwMVkl9HAR22jwLZEAQYASABEgK0u_D_BwE

 

[TomFOhio]

Mitch, by the looks of that wood floor its been leaking for a long time. I personally use the oatey jumbo wax seal with the horn.
Been using them for many years with no problems. Never had a toilet plug up because of the horn.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Mitch, by the looks of that wood floor its been leaking for a long time. I personally use the oatey jumbo wax seal with the horn.
Been using them for many years with no problems. Never had a toilet plug up because of the horn.

I agree, it’s been leaking for a while but just a bit. Not enough for the homeowner to notice any water on the floor but enough to damage the wood over time.

 

[Geofd]

Can't tell if that's flush to the floor or below,you can use a PVC spacer to raise the flange or try using a thicker wax ring those wax rings with the internal collar choke down the diameter of the drain if an auger gets caught on that it may ruin the seal

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Yesterday I removed all the bad wood. Unfortunately, the floor with the good wood is perfectly level, but the toilet flange is pretty out of level which means I will have to shim the toilet once installed. Today the toilet goes back in.

Per recommendations of @Twowaxhack everything was cleaned with denatured alcohol repeatedly. I also checked the floor flange for cracks and there were none, it’s actually in surprisingly good condition compared to others I’ve seen.

Because the floor flange is not level, there was probably a 5/16 inch gap on the right hand side, and maybe 1/8 of an inch if that on the left-hand side. It was clearly a problem in the installation of the flange not the slab or flooring. Those little shims you see were just added for support and are covered up by the cement floor patch.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I don’t see how the toilet will cover the width of the patch.

 

[MicEd69]

the floor with the good wood is perfectly level, but the toilet flange is pretty out of level which means I will have to shim the toilet once installed.

In addition to Twowaxhack's comment, I'm not understanding your comment above. If the floor is level where the toilet sits and the just the flange is out of level, why would you have to shim the toilet?

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

In addition to Twowaxhack's comment, I'm not understanding your comment above. If the floor is level where the toilet sits and the just the flange is out of level, why would you have to shim the toilet?

Because the toilet MIGHT sit on the flange that isn't level. We'll see when it gets mounted. The flange was simply not installed correctly. Because of the destruction of the finish floor (crappy 5/16 particle board with a thin veneer of dark oak on top) it's hard to tell exactly if the flange was mounted on top of the concrete slab or on top of the finish floor, or if it was mounted prior to the finish floor and they tried to leave a little space so that the finish floor or part of it could slide underneath. In any case they didn't attempt to level the flange, and it's all ancient history now. Will see how the toilet sits later this morning. Maybe no shims.

As for @Twowaxhack comment about the toilet base not covering the patch, this is a one piece toilet that has a massive oblong base, and most of the visible damage was confined to under the toilet. There was definitely part of the damage outside the footprint of the toilet on the right side as you look at the toilet from the front. That will just have to be painted in a color to closely approximate the flooring. They are well aware of this.

It sounds to me like the client may want to, at some point in the foreseeable future, change the home's flooring to LVP. So trying to match the flooring now would have been an expensive waste of time. It's poor quality builder's grade "engineered" (and I use that term loosely) flooring and is 20 years old now. You've achieved your goal when the customer is happy.

 

[Twowaxhack]

One more piece of advice. Make sure your wax is room temp. It’s spreads better at room temp or slightly above room temp.

Don’t over tighten the closet bolt nuts. A lot of people do and it can crack or deform the flange. Go slow and once the toilet base is touching the floor, snug them up and recheck them after 5-10 minutes. Snug again if necessary and then caulk the base.

I also like to put a little caulk on the closet bolt nuts to keep them from possibly backing off.

 

[TomFOhio]

I like the idea of putting caulk on the closet bolt nuts. Also if your seal is hard because of the weather I always put
the wax seal in the lavatory full of hot water. That softens them up pretty fast. Plus if you caulk around the base of the
toilet it won't move once dried.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

One more piece of advice. Make sure your wax is room temp. It’s spreads better at room temp or slightly above room temp.

Don’t over tighten the closet bolt nuts. A lot of people do and it can crack or deform the flange. Go slow and once the toilet base is touching the floor, snug them up and recheck them after 5-10 minutes. Snug again if necessary and then caulk the base.

I also like to put a little caulk on the closet bolt nuts to keep them from possibly backing off

Solid advice! The client has a utility sink just steps away from this powder room, in the garage. Really nice hot water there to soften that wax ring!
Ditto on the closet bolts ideas. When I mentioned the flange is in good shape, I've seen plenty damaged from over-tightening, probably a fraction of what you've seen but I get it.
After I get it in will be doing all you suggest...

 

[MicEd69]

Just some food for thought about caulking, as you have some concerns that the flange is too high since you say the toilet "MIGHT sit on the flange that isn't level". You may not want to caulk around the toilet immediately. And many people leave an uncaulked section in the back of the toilet base. But if it is a slow leak, which it will be, with only a short section uncaulked, it may not be discovered for quite a while.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Just some food for thought about caulking, as you have some concerns that the flange is too high since you say the toilet "MIGHT sit on the flange that isn't level". You may not want to caulk around the toilet immediately. And many people leave an uncaulked section in the back of the toilet base. But if it is a slow leak, which it will be, with only a short section uncaulked, it may not be discovered for quite a while.

I'm hesitant to caulk around this toilet at all. It's on a wood floor, and though I've certainly not seen it all, I've never seen a ceramic toilet caulked to a wood floor. I've done it to ceramic however, and always left it open in the back.

I will put a bit of caulk on the bolts.

My plan to set the toilet today didn't work out. That floor patch material I used--which is a cement base, like a pre-mix grout or mortar, was supposed to set hard in 4 hours. It was 24 hours and it wasn't hard enough. Will see if its hard tomorrow.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I’d caulk it with clear water based caulk. Caulk help stops movement, movement causes leaks.