Submersible Pump Issues

[newbiehomeowner]

Hi all -

I've learned a lot on this forum and am very grateful. I wanted to get your feedback on the following I've noticed with my sump pump.

Sump Pump Model: Barmesa 2SEV512
The pump pumps up about 1-1.5ft to a horizontal pipe that runs about 500 feet away from the home.

1) Earlier today, I tested the sump pump by running a hose in the sump and it was pumping some water out (a trickle, definitely not the normal amount), but then the pump itself began vibrating and shaking as the water level rose in the basin.
2) I disconnected the sump pump, submerged it in a bucket of water, and it was able to pump properly onto my lawn, which told me the pump was still operating and not burnt out.
3) I waited for a while, then I reconnected the pump, went to test it again. This time, the pump worked perfectly and was able to empty the basin multiple times without fail.
4) The only final thing I noticed is that after the pump emptied the basin at the end of my test, it started making a strange gurgling noise

I have 2 questions:
1) Any ideas as to why the pump was shaking/vibrating and not pumping, yet worked perfectly after disconnecting/reconnecting?
2) Any sense what the gurgling noise is after the pump shuts off?

Thanks so much!

 

[MicEd69]

500 feet?!? Can you provide a little more description for the 500-foot discharge line. Is there an elevation change, up or down? Is there a check valve? is this pump sitting in a "clean" sump? What is at the end of the discharge line?

Just guessing without answers to the questions above, the shaking could have been due to an obstruction in the suction of the pump that was cleared when you pulled the pump; dirt, paper, sand, etc. Or an obstruction in the 500-foot discharge run that was cleared by the water that "trickled" down the line; leaves, a mouse, etc.

My guess on the gurgling sound, without any further information, would be the sound of the water emptying out of the 500-foot run on piping.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

Yeah - I was shocked it was 500 feet as well, but this was how the system was created prior to us buying the home.

• There is no discernible elevation change in the horizontal discharge pipe. The pump pushes water about 1-1.5ft vertically out of the sump, then it is transported 500ft horizontally flat to the edge of a stream. We have worked to clear out some dirt etc that gathered at the edge of the stream to make sure the water has a clear path to exit
• The sump is pretty clean - there are probably some leaves and whatever other little debris is in rainwater
• We do have a one-way valve at the beginning of the discharge pipe to prevent any backflow

In doing some research, I'm wondering if the shaking/vibration was an air lock, resolved when we disconnected the pump??

The gurgling I'm not sure about and don't have a great theory

Thank you for the thoughts. Curious what you think

 

[MicEd69]

Yes, it could be as you thought. Without a great deal of lift required by the pump, it should pick up suction immediately. But perhaps the check valve was slightly stuck, and the pump was airlocked.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

So I went ahead and added a weep hole and things seem to work. Just one question: Is it ok if my discharge pipe enters the side of a stream, such that the pipe will sometimes be submerged in water. Will it still effectively pump out?

 

[MicEd69]

Yes, it will. That will only add some additional static head the pump needs to overcome. The only concern would be debris or minnows or snakes or whatever entering the pipe and causing it to plug. Does the pipe just end, or does it have a screen or something over the end of the pipe?

 

[newbiehomeowner]

The pipe just ends - I don't know if I want to add a screen for 2 reasons:
1) The pump sometimes pumps out water with leaves/sticks and I don't want those getting stuck on the end
2) Wouldnt the screen also impact the flow rate that the water actually leaves the pipe and enters the stream? I don't want to do anything to slow it down/constrict it

 

[MicEd69]

The pipe just ends - I don't know if I want to add a screen for 2 reasons:
1) The pump sometimes pumps out water with leaves/sticks and I don't want those getting stuck on the end
2) Wouldnt the screen also impact the flow rate that the water actually leaves the pipe and enters the stream? I don't want to do anything to slow it down/constrict it

If the pipe has been flowing for the other homeowners, I wouldn't worry about it then. I just envisioned a snake or bird or a mouse or something making a home in the pipe.

And you are correct, if leaves and things get pumped out from the sump, a screen at the end of the pipe could cause problems.

But if the sump is pumping water without any debris, the impact of a screen over the end of the pipe would depend on the size of the screen and the size of the screen openings. When putting a screen on a pipe outlet, you just don't put it over the end of the pipe opening. You make a longish cylinder or a ball and place it over the end of the pipe. That way, any pressure drop caused by the screen is minimized or essentially eliminated depending on the size of the screen. Think of a screen ball the size of a baseball over the end of a 2" pipe. That could cause issues. Replace that with one the size of a beach ball. That would have no effect on the pump's performance. And often, an emergency outlet is installed in a pump discharge line at a higher elevation than the main outlet should the main outlet get clogged. Like a tee in the line near to the discharge extending above the ground with a 180-degree turn, or a "rain hat", or a loose-fitting blow-off cap.

I think you are good as is.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

thanks a lot - I really like the concept of an emergency outlet/tee. What are those actually called? I want to potentially install one.

 

[MicEd69]

There isn't really a name for them, they are simply made from pipe and fittings. I'm assuming your discharge line is PVC. Here's a rough sketch and some info for the fittings.



The vent guard or screen could be one of these available from Amazon or one of the big box stores.



The two 90s could also be eliminated. It just depends on the area where this is located and if you think there could be problems with leaves, vines, branches, etc.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

Got it -- thanks a lot!

 

[newbiehomeowner]

Thanks all.

I placed a weep hole in my piping and it has been working well. However, I noticed today (after disconnecting and reconnecting the discharge pipe for cleaning) that when the pump was running, it started rattling again.

The rattling was an issue that I believe used to occur because of air lock and previously resolved with the weep hole.

My questions are:
1) is the rattling possible because this was the first time the pump ran after re-connecting it?
2) is it OK that my weep hole is underwater?
3) the weep hole didnt seem to spray continuously? It was pulsating. Is that normal?

Thank you!!

 

[MicEd69]

Just to clarify, when you say the pump is "rattling", is it shaking, or does it just sound like the pump is trying to pump rocks, or both?

The answers to your questions are:
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) No.

This pump is a centrifugal pump which means the pressure in the line crated by the pump is pretty constant. Is the rattling and the pulsating flow from the weep hole happening at the same time? From your description, I wasn't sure if the rattling was happening all the time, or if it was just during startup of the pump, or if it came and went as the pump was operating.

First, make sure the check valve is clean and operating properly. Second, make sure the bottom of the sump doesn't have anything blocking the suction of the pump. If things line out after the system is reinstalled and has operated a few times, I suppose it might be just quirks caused by the system layout. The rattling of a properly operating pump like this is usually caused by cavitation, it is air locked or has a blocked suction.

Hope this helps.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

The rattling was really just the pump discharge pipe shaking.

So you think this was airlock? Why would this occur right after I reconnected the discharge pipe?

 

[MicEd69]

How did you clean the discharge piping? Did it leave the pipe empty and does the pipe totally drain out after the pump stops? And is the pump continuing to rattle now during operating, or have things calmed down after the initial rattling?

It's hard to tell how bad the rattling is by describing it in words. If things are OK now, and the discharge pipe was totally empty, one possibility is that the pump is running way out on the pump curve and flowing a large amount of water. But that doesn't sound like what you describe, as that would mean that the line doesn't fully drain in normal operation.

So, I'm not sure without actually being there to try to diagnose the problem.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

I simply disconnected the discharge pipe near the check valve and made sure nothing was clogged (nothing was). I did this solely ahead of a storm, not because of any pump issues.

I then reconnected it. The portion of the pipe from the pump to where I disconnected would have been empty. I doubt the entirety of the 500ft pipe that extends to the final discharge site was totally empty.

I then tested the pump after reconnecting. The rattle occurred when the pump triggered - it was as if the pump was struggling to pump and therefore the discharge pipe was rattling. Water was discharging very slowly.

It seems as if things are OK now after that initial reconnect and rattle.

 

[MicEd69]

If thigs are running OK now, I would just say it was a system dynamic that may happen whenever you disconnect the discharge pipe. I wouldn't worry about it unless it keeps happening during routine operation.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

See attached video - the issue is persisting and on video. You can see that the pump is on, water is escaping the weep hole, but the pump is not discharging properly. Any thoughts?

 

[MicEd69]

You've taken the pump out and made sure it pumps, but how much discharge piping did you have on it? Was the check valve included in that test? You may want to redo that test and make sure there is no obstruction at the suction of the pump and have the check valve included in that test. You should also block some of the discharge pipe with some duct tape to add some backpressure to the pump to simulate the 500-foot pipe run.

That is a pain to do, and that pump should pump lower than the level shown in your video. So how about unplugging the pump and adding water to cover the pump. then plug in the pump back in. The pump is not getting suction, or the discharge is blocked somehow. I'm not sure if the union check valve can be installed backwards, but you might double check that if you have removed it during your testing/cleaning. And again, verify that check valve is working and not plugged.

While this isn't part of the problem, that weep hole sure looks to be rather large. It should only be around 1/4" or so.

 

[newbiehomeowner]

So I took out the pump and tested it with the check valve on it. However there's was just a couple feet of discharge pipe in this case, not anywhere near 500ft.

I also thought the weep hole seems to look larger in terms of the water spraying out, but the hole itself definitely didnt expand from the normal size.

I went and checked the end of the discharge pipe in the stream and I saw a steady steam of water flowing out - it wasn't coming out with massive force, but it was definitely flowing out.

Could the 500ft be too long?