Shower pressure drops

[bdmeyer]

I have been at this for several weekends now.
The problem is, when I turn the shower on, in less than one minute what starts out as a full stream, ends up as a trickle. This began about 6 weeks ago, I did some reading, and thought I was ready to fix it.

I have a delta single valve and a divertor mounted on the bathtub spout.

First, I replaced the Shower head. Nothing changed. Next I rebuilt the Shower valve by replacing the two springs and seals. Nothing changed.
I replaced the valve with a Danco, and Now the pressure coming out of the Spout is noticeably stronger when at at the middle position.

I moved the divertor to the 'shower' position, and it was the strongest stream I remember ever seeing from that shower. I've lived int he house about 7 years.

In less than a minute, the stream was very weak. No more dribble like before, but I am guessing maybe one fourth to one fifth of the full initial stream.

I thought, "Why not put the valve in the middle position just to see what happens (lukewarm, max cold/hot mixture)"

I did this, and didn't see much difference.

I bought a new Spout / Divertor.

Did the same thing, only now, I have two new problems:
1.) Merely turning the water on through the spout, and the water comes out of the spout AND the shower head.
2.) I have a non stop water hammer when I put the valve int he middle position.

I watched some videos on the cause of water hammer, and see I likely need to drain all the water from my house, to bleed the air out. I haven't a clue where the highest elevation is, as it is a single story structure.

I know where the water enters the house, so I will take a wild guess that maybe that is the highest elevation? (City Water)

The spout / divertor is a Sioux Chief Universal self tightening model, that i preferred over the plastic ones I saw at the Home Improvement places.

Any advice will be taken gratefully. I have no access panels, My house is on a concrete slab. I have looked inside the wall when I was replacing the valve and there was no water leak.

Thank you,
-= Bruce D. Meyer

 

[IFIXH20]

Remove the shower head & tub spout and slowly turn the valve on to check pressure. Check the shower head for any debris that may have broke free from repairs. If the pressure is good with the spout removed and you have no hammer , the problem is in the spout/shower head ( some sort of blockage). If the pressure is not good the problem is in the valve or piping. Post a couple pics of valve.

 

[bdmeyer]

IFIXH20,
Thank-you for your help. I have a pretty serious water hammer now, this is new since my work began. I will be working on all this over the weekend. (Including draining the houses water to try and fix the hammer) If the problem does not go away, I will provide pictures and any additional details.

-= Bruce

 

[bdmeyer]

I shut off the water to the house last night. I opened all water valves inside and out side. I let them stand open for 10 minutes. I closed all valves. Slowly turned water to the house back on. Water hammer is worse than before. Even flushing a toilet sounds like a pipe is banging against the wall.
Steps I plan for today: Shut water to house off. Open all water valves inside and outside. Let stand. With all valves inside and outside still open, slowly turn water pressure to house back on. Close off all water valves to see if this removes air from lines better than the other way I tried last night. Remove shower valve and shower head. Disassemble, and clean. Replace valve only. Run water out of bathtub spout pipe. Plug pipe and see if pressure remains constant out of shower head pipe over time. Replace Shower head, repeat test. (Taking photo's along the way.) Buy a water hammer arrester and install close to sound of hammer. Possibly cut drywall open on back side of shower to see if pipe clamps recently came loose. Take up binge drinking as a new hobby.

 

[IFIXH20]

The hammer issue could be coming from your service entrance valve (shutoff valve for house). Fixtures should be in the open position when refilling water lines to help remove air. Post pics of service entrance valve and tub/shower valve in question.

 

[phishfood]

By chance, do you have a pressure reducing/regulating valve on your water service? Do all other fixtures have good and continuous water pressure, even with multiple fixtures running?

 

[BENANDALFIE]

Sounds like the incoming service valve has a sticky seating if its noise on all appliances
Change the valve
Is the shower fed from the cold water tank if it is it could be starved of water if mains is low

 

[phishfood]

Sounds like the incoming service valve has a sticky seating if its noise on all appliances
Change the valve
Is the shower fed from the cold water tank if it is it could be starved of water if mains is low

From the UK, I take it?

If I understand correctly, you guys have a lot of systems where the main fills a storage tank, which then feeds the fixtures?

That type of system is rare in the US, the closest you are likely to find is a bladder/pressure tank on a private well system.

 

[bdmeyer]

Thank you everyone who has replied. I will answer the questions from each plumber in one post here:

IFIXH20: I did as you recommended (twice) I ran a hose from the bottom of the water heater, and opened the valve on the top, disconnected washer and ran hoses into bucket, Opened all other valves wide open. After letting everything drip til dry, I opened the service entrance, and walked round one at a time, closing valves as I felt no more air was in that line. No difference at all in water hammer. I can actually feel it at the location that the shower valve is seated inside of. I have pictures of the shower valve and will post. I replaced the Delta with a Danco, and learned this from a British plumber that works at our local Lowes: My 'hew' Danco appears to have introduced a harmonic whine at max pressure. His thoughts were that the new valve wasn't sealing right, and air was being sucked in. He recommended I coat the 'O' rings with silicone. I did this, and the whine is gone. I noticed the the Danco, has an extra tab where the large O ring is, whereas the Original Delta does not. ( I saved it as I can't find anything wrong with it) The water hammer appeared after I started working on replacing the valve and shower head.
It is dark outside, but I'll take a picture of the service entrance and if it is viewable, I will post that here also.

PHISHFOOD:
I am unaware if the service entrance has a has a flow restrictor.
When I had the sprinkler system, both outdoor water hose valves wide open, washing machine hoses disconnected running wide open, water heater draining, running wide open, and everything else in the house wide open, The further into the house I got, the less items had pressure and eventually, there was no water coming out until I started shutting other valves off. (The needle on the water meter was making quite a racket and flying around at this point) Under normal circumstances, toilet flish, washer and dishwasher running, and taking a shower,there is no noticeable pressure drop int he house. I am on City Water with very strong water pressure, in relation to the pressure I had at my last house that was in a rural area.

BENANDALFIE:
To clarify, if by noise, you mean the water hammer, the hammer is only in one bathroom, but any valve closure in my house will cause it. (in the bathroom)
I used the English plumbers idea of taking a long screw driver and using it as a stethoscope. I pressed it firmly against a copper pipe with a valve cracked on the opposite side of the house, and had my wife gradually close it, I could clearly tell when the water shutoff, and could hear no other noises after that. (Checking if I have a leak that is big enough to be heard.)

I have pictures of the valve dissembled, video of the water flow dropping, flow with shower head removed and never dropping.

Thank you all again for all your help.

-= Bruce D. Meyer

 

[bdmeyer]

The first two pictures are of the Danco valve, which is currently installed.
The third picture shows the pipework inside the wall where the valve goes.
The fourth picture is of the water meter main cutoff with the valve on the street side showing.
The fifth picture is of the actual meter (lid closed) and the house side pipe. (For the question on if I have a flow restrictor.)
The last picture shows the original Delta valve installed.

I have picture so these valves taken apart also.

 

[IFIXH20]

Thank you everyone who has replied. I will answer the questions from each plumber in one post here:

IFIXH20: I did as you recommended (twice) I ran a hose from the bottom of the water heater, and opened the valve on the top, disconnected washer and ran hoses into bucket, Opened all other valves wide open. After letting everything drip til dry, I opened the service entrance, and walked round one at a time, closing valves as I felt no more air was in that line. No difference at all in water hammer. I can actually feel it at the location that the shower valve is seated inside of. I have pictures of the shower valve and will post. I replaced the Delta with a Danco, and learned this from a British plumber that works at our local Lowes: My 'hew' Danco appears to have introduced a harmonic whine at max pressure. His thoughts were that the new valve wasn't sealing right, and air was being sucked in. He recommended I coat the 'O' rings with silicone. I did this, and the whine is gone. I noticed the the Danco, has an extra tab where the large O ring is, whereas the Original Delta does not. ( I saved it as I can't find anything wrong with it) The water hammer appeared after I started working on replacing the valve and shower head.
It is dark outside, but I'll take a picture of the service entrance and if it is viewable, I will post that here also.

PHISHFOOD:
I am unaware if the service entrance has a has a flow restrictor.
When I had the sprinkler system, both outdoor water hose valves wide open, washing machine hoses disconnected running wide open, water heater draining, running wide open, and everything else in the house wide open, The further into the house I got, the less items had pressure and eventually, there was no water coming out until I started shutting other valves off. (The needle on the water meter was making quite a racket and flying around at this point) Under normal circumstances, toilet flish, washer and dishwasher running, and taking a shower,there is no noticeable pressure drop int he house. I am on City Water with very strong water pressure, in relation to the pressure I had at my last house that was in a rural area.

BENANDALFIE:
To clarify, if by noise, you mean the water hammer, the hammer is only in one bathroom, but any valve closure in my house will cause it. (in the bathroom)
I used the English plumbers idea of taking a long screw driver and using it as a stethoscope. I pressed it firmly against a copper pipe with a valve cracked on the opposite side of the house, and had my wife gradually close it, I could clearly tell when the water shutoff, and could hear no other noises after that. (Checking if I have a leak that is big enough to be heard.)

I have pictures of the valve dissembled, video of the water flow dropping, flow with shower head removed and never dropping.

Thank you all again for all your help.

-= Bruce D. Meyer

Bruce, sorry for the confusion, the valve I was referring to in my 1st reply is the shower valve and I should have stated that. What I wanted you to do is remove the tub spout and shower head then slowly turn the tub/shower valve on to check the pressure coming out of spout stub-out (piping for spout) and to see if you still had hammering, if so , turn off house water then remove cartridge from tub/shower valve, with cartridge removed from tub/shower valve turn house water back on to check water pressure coming out tub/shower valve and to see if hammering stops. NOTE - before turning house water on after removing tub/shower valve cartridge place a towel under tub/shower valve to prevent water from running back into wall and close shower curtain. I would not recommend using after market parts on any major brand Faucet or Valve. Contact Delta customer support and they will send you a genuine Delta cartridge for free.

 

[camaroderrick73]

If they new delta. Cart does not work it's the shower valve start by removing the valve and install shark bite MIPS on the open lines to see if you have full pressure at these lines( of course use a long supply threaded in the the mip into the tub)

You should have full flow at each copper line .

Sounds like either debris is lodged in the valve or the 90s in the wall or at the valve at full of solider

 

[bdmeyer]

Camaroderick73.
Thank you,
Two questions:
Is there a difference between the cartridge and the valve? I thought the cartridge is the valve.
What would a good item be for fishing through the 90's, or should I just braze them off one at a time?

 

[bdmeyer]

IFIXH20
I emailed Delta, and have provided the info they requested. We will see what they say. I will be trying your recommendation on my next bit of 'plumbing' time later this week, and update this thread once I have followed your instructions. Thank-you for sticking with me.

UPDATE: Delta is indeed mailing me a new Cartridge. I guess I won't be buying cheap knockoff's again. Lesson learned. I'll be continuing the advice given recently as soon as the cartridge arrives. I will post status once test is done.

I had a coworker tell me I might have Water hammer (Air column style) built into the plumbing that may be full of water...

 

[camaroderrick73]

Camaroderick73.
Thank you,
Two questions:
Is there a difference between the cartridge and the valve? I thought the cartridge is the valve.
What would a good item be for fishing through the 90's, or should I just braze them off one at a time?

The cartridge is what goes into the valve . The danco product you replaced was a cartridge. The valve is the brass thing I your wall.

Remove the cartridge and turn the water on ans see if you still have low pressure( you obviously need two people for this) if you have low pressure when the cart. Is removed it's one either debris in line, or the 90s are filled with solider. If there filled, there's no way to "fish" through them and need to be replaced

 

[bdmeyer]

Thank-you for explaining the difference. I was thinking all this time that the valve was the little metal cylinder inside the cartridge (thereby the same thing as the cartridge) This makes a big difference in reading help where I am told to do something with the valve.

Delta is indeed sending me a new cartridge. Once it arrives I will be following the instructions from you and IFIXH20.

 

[bdmeyer]

As IFIXH20 stated, Delta did indeed ship me a new cartridge free of charge. I won't be buying substandard stuff again.
IFIXH20: Here are the results of what your instructed me to try:
With the spout still in place water pressure is great, no hammer from shutting off a sink valve while flowing water from the spout at the same time.

Removed Spout, Almost horizontal stream from stub to other end of bathtub. No hammer from sink at shutoff, but yes hammer, when shutting off bathtub valve.

All this becomes moot though...

I shutoff water to house, removed cartridge, wife turned on water at street, and wow. It was like a firehose. (No really, i used to be a volunteer firefighter, it was like a firehose) Even with the shower curtain closed I have a soaked bathroom floor and wall now.
I had her cut the water off after about 30 seconds. I placed silicon on the o-rings of the OEM Delta cartridge, left the cartridge open in the mix hot/cold position, and had my wife cut the water on slowly back at the street. After about a minute I then ran pure hot, and then pure cold to make sure any new air might be bled off.
I put the spout on so I could do the same to the shower head stub. No loss of pressure to the shower stub for one minute.
I then cut the water off to the tub. Went to go get something and had to turn around and start violently turning the hot and cold water off at the sink, and tub, just to bask to the sound of 'NO water hammer;

There is absolutely zero water hammer any more.
For my own education, I would love to hear any comments on what happened to fix it. Was this the replacement with a proper OEM Delta cartridge, or blowing the lines out with no cartridge in the valve?

Next, I placed the shower head back on. I still have loss of pressure at the shower head.

Thank you all who have helped me get this far. That one of two perplexing problems solved.

At least now I am back to the original problem that started all of this. (The loss of pressure when the shower head is activated with the diverter on the bathtub spout. )

I had previously tried to rule out the diverter/spout by removing the spout and blocking the spout stuff. Water pressure is lost inside one minute this was also, which i think eliminates the spout/diverter.

-= Bruce

 

[IFIXH20]

Bruce, sorry about the flooded floors & wall. The last issue you have may be a easy fix - You say water pressure is fine coming out the shower arm with shower head removed correct ? If so, debris may be lodge in the shower head flow restrictor/water saver. Remove and clean shower head flow restrictor/water saver. If you just remove restrictor/saver you will use more water especially hot water. As far as what solved the other issues I'm not sure without being there, but we both can assume it was the cartridge or debris in the valve or both.

 

[bdmeyer]

It is a 'new' shower head in so far as It was the first thing I replaced when all this began. I did remove the round piece of screen and what sort of looks like a n o-ring or seal perhaps that was on top of the screen. I had done this at the very beginning.(A month ago)
Should I assume that inside of the shower head there may be some sort of obstruction? I don't see anyway to disassemble it, so i may need to buy another shower head for this test.

 

[IFIXH20]

If you pressure is fine coming out the shower arm with the shower head removed, that leads me to believe the problem is in the shower head.