Septic electrical

[Concepn]

Can anyone tell me what I'm looking at. It's the electrical right next to a septic riser. One of the cords been cut so I'm thinking something was added or taken out. It's from an old manufactured home I'm buying and was newly renovated by seller. But I'm not confident about septic electrical connections. Any thoughts would be appreciated

 

[RS]

Do you have a mound system? It looks somewhat similar to what we have, we have a septic tank, then a lift station with a pump setup similar to yours. It looks like yours must be working, the liquid level isn't much above the pump. Ours has a second switch for a high level alarm, maybe that's what your seeing.

 

[Concepn]

Yep...there is a mound which I'm pretty sure is the leach field. Thanks for the input...I'm guessing the cut cord is for an alarm system. Again, thanks!

 

[Twowaxhack]

It appears to me that at one time you had a professional pump system with a control box.

Looks like it failed and they chopped the wires

 

[Concepn]

It appears to me that at one time you had a professional pump system with a control box.

Looks like it failed and they chopped the wires

Wow...why would they chop the wires and not mention it (sellers)? Septic was pumped by professional service we insisted upon before sale...why wouldn't they (septic service) mention it to me when I called them for a receipt? I certainly have to get someone else out to fix this. I truly appreciate the input

 

[cliffyk]

Wow...why would they chop the wires and not mention it (sellers)? Septic was pumped by professional service we insisted upon before sale...why wouldn't they (septic service) mention it to me when I called them for a receipt? I certainly have to get someone else out to fix this. I truly appreciate the input

Because that was the cheapest way out, and they didn't mind screwing over the new owner. The honey-wagon guy was paid to pump out the tank. You now have a cesspool that will require periodic pumpin until the local authorities.decids you are pumping it too often and declare it failed...

Caveat emptor...

 

[Twowaxhack]

Wow...why would they chop the wires and not mention it (sellers)? Septic was pumped by professional service we insisted upon before sale...why wouldn't they (septic service) mention it to me when I called them for a receipt? I certainly have to get someone else out to fix this. I truly appreciate the input

The wires are hanging there……

Look how big the old electrical enclosure was……

Sure appears there was a different type pump system there at one time.

Why would they do that ? Because it’s cheap, it works and they’re selling it.

 

[RS]

Have you checked it out to see if it works? Reach down in the pit with something like a garden rake and lift the float switch, if the pump starts and pumps out then all is OK! The cut wires might be form some older system that was removed but not the wires.

 

[Twowaxhack]

It needs a lid that can be secured closed.

Kids can drown in those pits. So make sure it has a lid that can be secured.

Accept no less…….

 

[cliffyk]

In looking at the OP's first photo, of the tank opening, I would say that 1-1/2' or 2" pipe with the elbow and coupled hose is the discharge for the ejector pump. I'd bet breaking that clamped hose connection and yanking up the pipe would reveal a pump--someone else can do that. I replaced an ejector pump in a rusted out 55 gallon drum at the bottom of a 14 ft. deep cistern one time; and vowed "never again"...

 

[Concepn]

It needs a lid that can be secured closed.

Kids can drown in those pits. So make sure it has a lid that can be secured.

Accept no less…….

Yep! Got a lid for it...it was an insurance and VA requirement.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Your first job, Concepn, is to ensure the dangling cords can not become accidentally energized.

From the photo, they look like SJ or SO cords, not building wires. Cord in conduit & underground not a safe plan at all and against NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code). Moisture goes in the conduit, condenses and the cords lay in the water, eventually deteriorating the insulation.

Do your best to follow them back to the load center or a pull box somewhere. Once you find a suspect wire, ground it to anything grounded nearby. Go to the wire a the outdoor box and see if it shows continuity to ground. Next, remove the ground at the other end & see if the continuity stopped.

If the continuity is present when one end is grounded, but not when the other end is removed from the ground, you found the other wire. If continuity to earth is present before you ground the wire, it's either shorted to ground or intentionally grounded.
(Some rental houses also have underground tracers to make your job even easier.)

I hope this trick helps you figure out the mystery easily.
Paul

 

[Twowaxhack]

Your first job, Concepn, is to ensure the dangling cords can not become accidentally energized.

From the photo, they look like SJ or SO cords, not building wires. Cord in conduit & underground not a safe plan at all and against NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code). Moisture goes in the conduit, condenses and the cords lay in the water, eventually deteriorating the insulation.

Do your best to follow them back to the load center or a pull box somewhere. Once you find a suspect wire, ground it to anything grounded nearby. Go to the wire a the outdoor box and see if it shows continuity to ground. Next, remove the ground at the other end & see if the continuity stopped.

If the continuity is present when one end is grounded, but not when the other end is removed from the ground, you found the other wire. If continuity to earth is present before you ground the wire, it's either shorted to ground or intentionally grounded.
(Some rental houses also have underground tracers to make your job even easier.)

I hope this trick helps you figure out the mystery easily.
Paul

The only proper way to connect pumps and control wires is to have them in conduit underground and then enter the pump basin. Of course it’ll be in water…….

It’s fine.

 

[cliffyk]

Wow...why would they chop the wires and not mention it (sellers)? Septic was pumped by professional service we insisted upon before sale...why wouldn't they (septic service) mention it to me when I called them for a receipt? I certainly have to get someone else out to fix this. I truly appreciate the input

Your first job, Concepn, is to ensure the dangling cords can not become accidentally energized.

From the photo, they look like SJ or SO cords, not building wires. Cord in conduit & underground not a safe plan at all and against NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code). Moisture goes in the conduit, condenses and the cords lay in the water, eventually deteriorating the insulation.

Do your best to follow them back to the load center or a pull box somewhere. Once you find a suspect wire, ground it to anything grounded nearby. Go to the wire a the outdoor box and see if it shows continuity to ground. Next, remove the ground at the other end & see if the continuity stopped.

If the continuity is present when one end is grounded, but not when the other end is removed from the ground, you found the other wire. If continuity to earth is present before you ground the wire, it's either shorted to ground or intentionally grounded.
(Some rental houses also have underground tracers to make your job even easier.)

I hope this trick helps you figure out the mystery easily.
Paul

This (see below) looks like a 115V receptacle with a right angle connector plugged into it:

I

The other cables appear to be dead, just protruding from the conduit (presumably leading to the pit).

 

[Twowaxhack]

It might be a good idea to have those wires totally removed. There’s a chance they could become energized.

That’s what BirdDoo is communicating. I agree…..

 

[Bird Doo Head]

It might be a good idea to have those wires totally removed. There’s a chance they could become energized.

That’s what BirdDoo is communicating. I agree…..

You don't have to remove them, although that's the best plan. If they are cord in pipe or underground, not building wire, you'll never want to use them. (Maybe for control wiring under 50 volts to ground, but it's still cord & will still rot from moisture & UV penetration.)

Don't cut them flush with the conduit & leave them like so many people do. You may want to use the pipe later.

You can cap them off at the source. Labeling where they end up is a good idea for later.

 

[Twowaxhack]

You don't have to remove them, although that's the best plan. If they are cord in pipe or underground, not building wire, you'll never want to use them. (Maybe for control wiring under 50 volts to ground, but it's still cord & will still rot from moisture & UV penetration.)

Don't cut them flush with the conduit & leave them like so many people do. You may want to use the pipe later.

You can cap them off at the source. Labeling where they end up is a good idea for later.

The source of the wires that are cut was the big electrical box they run from in the pic.
That’s a sewage pump control box that’s been stripped out. They cut the wires and left them……

That’s how we wire sewage ejector pumps. So that wiring was proper.

Submersible pumps have wire that you can submerge…….so the new pump wire is fine. It can and Must be in conduit like you see.

Any questions I’ll be happy to elaborate. I install these systems on a regular basis.

The old wires should’ve been removed. Now the old cut wires are in the conduit with Live wires. The cut wires are dangling naked inside the basin and outside of the old control box. So the old wires could be energized by accident, there’s the potential.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The electrical code will allow SJ cord in raceways under some conditions.

A sewage pump must be one of those conditions because all of our systems are inspected and I’ve installed them in Ms,Al, Ga and Fl. They all pass inspection.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

From TwoWax Hack: "The electrical code will allow SJ cord in raceways under some conditions."
Here is the situation that NEC specifically allows it:
NFPA 70 allows it in Article 400.14 (if I remember the section number correctly) only for above ground raceways in industrial establishments where only qualified personnel service the installation (or words to that effect).

Flexible cords & cables from 400.4 are considered temporary wiring unless they meet an exception in 400.7(A). The only time a flexible cord or cable is allowed as permanent wiring is when it meets an item on the list at 400.7(A) 1-10. Article 368.56 gets involved, too.

400 (A) 8 is where sewage pumps meet an exception.

The flexible cord or cable can't enter the building. It has to stop at a junction box outside. The proper building wire must enter the structure (tthn, thwn. rhhw, NM, MC, etc.). Also, flexible cords & cables can not pass through a wall under any conditions by 400.8.

The sewage ejectors pumps that I've wired, usually 480 v 3-phase, usually come with 4 to 24 conductor Type SOOW or Type W cords preinstalled at the factory. Technically, field wiring the cord is not allowed by the listing agency.

SJEW, SJOW can be seen on 120 volt sump & fountain pumps. And, they are attached via cord & plug.
There are many more types of Table 400.4 cords that will be allowed, but are not typically used in this application.

Commonly sold SJ, SJEO, SJE, SO, SOO are not allowed for submersible pumps, as are not many other 400.4 cords.

Well pumps usually have individual Twisted Pump Cable (TypeTHW) conductors. It's allowed in conduit, using 75-C for de-rating purposes. (I saw a submersible well pump recently with flat cable. It wasn't Type FCC, but I don't remember the designation.)

However...
If the manufacturer provides a product that is listed by an approved testing agency (UL, ETL, etc.), whatever cord is on the assembly, is allowed- outside of the building.

"A sewage pump must be one of those conditions because all of our systems are inspected and I’ve installed them in Ms,Al, Ga and Fl. They all pass inspection."
Technically, it is against NEC to install the cord in a conduit at NFPA 70 Article 400.8(6) except for 400.14 situations and 368.56(B) if I remember the article numbers correctly. (I don't refer to the code often these days & don't inspect any more, so I tend to forget the article number stuff that I learned during 45+ years in the field.)

I have successfully argued with AJHs and project engineers many, many times that the wiring from the control box (on the outside of the building) down the wall to a trench, then to the ejector pump far from the building is far more protected in conduit than if it were to be directly buried on its way to the pit. The same holds true for monitor wiring for underground high voltage splice vaults. Simply size the conduit correctly per conductor fill requirements to avoid de-rating. I also install a warning ribbon along the conduit's length in the trench about 10" above it.

I have never installed cord from a control box on the building down the wall of the building without protection, either conduit or at least half-sleeve channel, citing 400.8. One must simply size the conduit to meet the conductor fill requirements for that particular raceway.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The cords that come on sewer pumps and control floats can be inside conduits.

The pump and controls are considered moveable equipment and they must be removable for service.

It’s perfectly legal.

This is the last post I’m going to make on the subject because I’ve personally installed them in FOUR states and it always passed inspection by both electrical and plumbing departments.

One of my best friends builds the pump control boxes at Gulf Coast Pump on Howells Ferry Rd. In Mobile,Al and ships them all over the country. Their list of customers include city’s, towns and other municipalities down to plumbing companies like myself.

Look them up…..
http://www.gcpemobile.com/
Have a good day.