partly clogged 4" cast iron main line, questions about installing a cleanout

[Twowaxhack]

I’ve taken a hammer and beat the crap out of them until it half caved in.

Yeah, I have a temper.

 

[LMHmedchem]

Measuring across the top of the plug it measures ~4.25" What size is this?

Unlike the examples of 4" plugs I am looking at, the one in my clean-out seems to have a lip outside of the threads that is about 1/4" thick. This lip sits down on the top of the cast iron pipe. This is likely not necessary as far as a replacement goes but it's hard to know the diameter of the threaded part of the plug. I assume that it's 4" but I won't really know until I get it out.

Can I use a PVC plug as a replacement or does it need to be brass?

LMHmedchem

 

[Twowaxhack]

Measuring across the top of the plug it measures ~4.25" What size is this?

Unlike the examples of 4" plugs I am looking at, the one in my clean-out seems to have a lip outside of the threads that is about 1/4" thick. This lip sits down on the top of the cast iron pipe. This is likely not necessary as far as a replacement goes but it's hard to know the diameter of the threaded part of the plug. I assume that it's 4" but I won't really know until I get it out.

Can I use a PVC plug as a replacement or does it need to be brass?

LMHmedchem

You’re likely seeing the threaded caulking ferrule.
https://www.grainger.com/product/60...VvBXUAR1X3A18EAQYASABEgIVcPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
It slips into the cast iron hub and is caulked in with lead and Oakum.

It gives you threads to screw your clean out into.

It’s likely 4”.

 

[LMHmedchem]

I looked for a groove in the top near the edge where the plug would meet the ferrule and didn't see anything. I took a wire brush on a grinder to the plug to clean it up and see if that would help.

This is a picture,



You can see that the plug is solid brass all the way to the edge of the hub and that there is a lip of about 1/4" thickness.

I suspect that you are correct that the plug is 4", but there is no way to know for sure without knowing how wide the lip is. I am also not sure that I can cut this out without damaging the threads since I can see where the plug stops and the threads start. If this is a very old fitting (old enough that people here don't recognize it) it's also possible that the plug size or threading are not what would be considered standard now and it would be hard to find a replacement.

I think I should just leave this as it is for now instead of opening it up by forceful means without knowing if I can get it closed again (without a cork and allot of cold weld) . I think it makes more sense to dig it up and cut the entire hub off of the cast iron. After that, the port and plug could be replaced with PVC and a Fernco, or dig it further and install a proper 2-way clean-out.

If I am going to do that much work, I think it makes more sense to go back to installing a 2-way clean-out in the stack as was discussed earlier. I could do allot of work to get this old floor clean-out functional just to find out that it's not big enough to get the proper tool into the line.

Does this make sense?

LMHmedchem

 

[LMHmedchem]

I would support anything I could to the joists, then I would buy (from a plumbing supply house) what's refereed tool as a steel friction clamp,or riser clamp you could put it just above the 1st wye and secure it to the joists with threaded rod and nuts 3/8"

Can you direct me to any pictures of a setup like this?

I am having trouble visualizing where the threaded rod would go.

The friction clamps I have seen look like they are designed to sit on the floor and support the pipe with the arms of the clamp. The only set of holes in the clamp is for the bolts to tighten it. Where would the threaded rod go?

Do you mean to run a length of threaded rod between the joists on each side of the pipe for the arms of the clamp to sit on?

LMHmedchem

 

[Geofd]

I think I mentioned 2 spots for the friction clamp,one was near the base of the stack,supported by a 2×4 under each sideyou could also put the other one higher under a hub securi g it to the joists with what's called side beam hangers you screw them to the beam and thread the rod thru them securing the rod to the friction clamp were the ears tighten together withe washers and nuts above and belowthe clamp, it maybe over kill but you don't want your stack or branches moving, I don't know how to show pictures

 

[Twowaxhack]

Almost looks like the top of a drum trap to me.

Or it might be a test tee AKA threaded tee.

Tear it up and find out

If I can’t repair it then neither will you when I get finished with it.

 

[LMHmedchem]

I think I mentioned 2 spots for the friction clamp, one was near the base of the stack, supported by a 2×4 under each side. You could also put the other one higher under a hub securing it to the joists with what's called side beam hangers.

Thanks, I will pick up the side beam hangers tomorrow. Most of the weight will be on the lower friction clamp that will sit under one of the hubs and be supported by 2x4s.

This is what I got for riser clamps,

2800-10 4" BLK RISER CLAMP

I am putting together a part list for the clean-out. I was thinking something like,

Charlotte Pipe 4in. DWV PVC Two-Way Cleanout ($22.63)
2x Fernco 4"x4" PVC DWV Mechanical Flexible Coupling ($9.86)
Charlotte Pipe 3" PVC DWV Fitting Cleanout Adapter with Cleanout Plug ($9.87)
Charlotte Pipe 4"x2' PVC Schedule 40 DWV Foam Core Pipe ($26.84)
Oatey 8 oz. Purple CPVC and PVC Primer and Regular Clear PVC Cement ($10.57)

First of all, I am not married to Home Depot. There is a Republic and a Ferguson here nearby and probably others as well. Republic doesn't seem to carry this kind of cleanout but only the "T" type. The Ferguson part is basically 3 times as expensive and is listed as a schedule 40 part. Is it worth it to pay the additional cost, meaning is the Ferguson (or some other part) more heavy duty, etc?

I find it very annoying that the most expensive item on the list is the 2' section of plain PVC pipe. I can't seem to find a "no-hub' PVC version of the cleanout. I could just use a "Y" but I would prefer a 2-way the would allow me to clean the stack above the fitting. Is there some other solution to marry the PVC hub to the cast iron?

I think this would be the best flexible coupling,

Fernco 1056-44RC 4in. Plastic Coupling with Stainless Steel Band ($34.67)

but I can't seem to find it in stock.

Republic has this clamp,

Huskey C400-HW 4" 4-Band Coupling (they don't post prices)

Would this be a good alternative or should I be looking at something else?

I know this is a great many questions but I would rather ask now as opposed to redoing things later.

LMHmedchem

 

[Geofd]

Thanks, I will pick up the side beam hangers tomorrow. Most of the weight will be on the lower friction clamp that will sit under one of the hubs and be supported by 2x4s.

This is what I got for riser clamps,

2800-10 4" BLK RISER CLAMP

I am putting together a part list for the clean-out. I was thinking something like,

Charlotte Pipe 4in. DWV PVC Two-Way Cleanout ($22.63)
2x Fernco 4"x4" PVC DWV Mechanical Flexible Coupling ($9.86)
Charlotte Pipe 3" PVC DWV Fitting Cleanout Adapter with Cleanout Plug ($9.87)
Charlotte Pipe 4"x2' PVC Schedule 40 DWV Foam Core Pipe ($26.84)
Oatey 8 oz. Purple CPVC and PVC Primer and Regular Clear PVC Cement ($10.57)

First of all, I am not married to Home Depot. There is a Republic and a Ferguson here nearby and probably others as well. Republic doesn't seem to carry this kind of cleanout but only the "T" type. The Ferguson part is basically 3 times as expensive and is listed as a schedule 40 part. Is it worth it to pay the additional cost, meaning is the Ferguson (or some other part) more heavy duty, etc?

I find it very annoying that the most expensive item on the list is the 2' section of plain PVC pipe. I can't seem to find a "no-hub' PVC version of the cleanout. I could just use a "Y" but I would prefer a 2-way the would allow me to clean the stack above the fitting. Is there some other solution to marry the PVC hub to the cast iron?

I think this would be the best flexible coupling,

Fernco 1056-44RC 4in. Plastic Coupling with Stainless Steel Band ($34.67)

but I can't seem to find it in stock.

Republic has this clamp,

Huskey C400-HW 4" 4-Band Coupling (they don't post prices)

Would this be a good alternative or should I be looking at something else?

I know this is a great many questions but I would rather ask now as opposed to redoing things later.

LMHmedchem

If you planing on putting it back in pvc,in mass you would have to keep it cast iron,that's code,unless your changing all to outside the house, where you not having it inspected , pvc will be fine, but the 4" couplings should be stainless steel 4band couplings husky is a very popular brand you won't find them at home Depot,were you transition from cat iron to pvc you would need a cast iron×pvc adapter (2) one for each end when you go back to cast iron, not sure were you want that 2 way clean out there is another fitting called a dandy clean out,that 2way clean out is usually used on pipe that's buried, let me know if this makes sense,
Not sure were you are in mass but metropolitan pipe is good their. In Woburn,web supply is in Boston, and Watertown,republic,is in Norwood,and Framingham,oh yeh web is also in billerica

 

[LMHmedchem]

If you planing on putting it back in pvc, in mass you would have to keep it cast iron, that's code, unless your changing all to outside the house, where you not having it inspected, pvc will be fine, but the 4" couplings should be stainless steel 4band couplings husky is a very popular brand you won't find them at home Depot, were you transition from cat iron to pvc you would need a cast iron×pvc adapter (2) one for each end when you go back to cast iron, not sure were you want that 2 way clean out there is another fitting called a dandy clean out,that 2way clean out is usually used on pipe that's buried, let me know if this makes sense,
Not sure were you are in mass but metropolitan pipe is good their. In Woburn, web supply is in Boston, and Watertown, republic is in Norwood, and Framingham, oh yeh web is also in billerica

If I understand you correctly, I would not be code for me to remove a section of the cast iron stack and replace it with a PVC clean-out. Is that correct?

To install a clean-out in the stack and comply with code it would be necessary to install something like,
T56-044 4 NO-HUB DCO TEE W/4" RAISED HEX HEAD PLUG
Jones Stephens 4"x4" Cast Iron No Hub Test Tee Fitting with Plug ($50.74)

with 2 no-hub couples,
PROFLO 4" No Hub Heavy Duty Domestic Cast Iron Coupling ($18.14)
C400-HW 4" HUSKY 4-BAND COUPLING
4 NH COUPLING 303-411 CINH4

Is this would you would recommend to comply with code? Are there any options above that you wouldn't use?

I can't see how I could possibly insert a cast iron clean-out with hubs into the stack so it looks like this is the only option for 2-way access. I could install a "Y" but I am having trouble finding anything with a 3" or 4" threaded plug as part of the Y.

You say that since I am not pulling a permit and having inspections that I could get away with PVC but that the part I listed is usually installed in a horizontal section of buried pipe. I suspect that it might not be strong enough to install with cast iron sitting on it. Do you agree?

LMHmedchem

 

[Geofd]

If I understand you correctly, I would not be code for me to remove a section of the cast iron stack and replace it with a PVC clean-out. Is that correct?

To install a clean-out in the stack and comply with code it would be necessary to install something like,
T56-044 4 NO-HUB DCO TEE W/4" RAISED HEX HEAD PLUG

with 2 no-hub clamps like,
C400-HW 4" HUSKY 4-BAND COUPLING
4 NH COUPLING 303-411 CINH4

Is this would you would recommend to comply with code? I can't see how I could possibly insert a cast iron clean-out with hubs into the stack so it looks like this is the only option for 2-way access. I could install a "Y" but I am having trouble finding anything with a 3" or 4" threaded plug as part of the Y.

You say that since I am not pulling a permit and having inspections that I could get away with PVC but that the part I listed is usually installed in a horizontal section of buried pipe. I suspect that it might not be strong enough to install with cast iron sitting on it. Do you agree?

LMHmedchem
I've seen pvc mixed with cast iron,if all you need is that clean out access I would just cut in the clean out just above the basement slop sink flood level, that way if you open the cover you not gonna get water leaking of the cap,there are sawzall blades made specifically to cut cast iron iuse the 4 band husky orange clamps

 

[LMHmedchem]

use the 4 band husky orange clamps

That would be these clamps?

4010 4" No-Hub Heavy Duty Stainless Steel Coupling ($19.23)

LMHmedchem

 

[Geofd]

Yes those are the ones I use, diablo sawzall blades made by Milwaukee also

 

[LMHmedchem]

Alright,

I think I will use the following,

Jones Stephens 4"x4" Cast Iron No Hub Test Tee Fitting with Plug ($50.74)
2x 4010 4" No-Hub Heavy Duty Stainless Steel Coupling ($19.23)

unless you have an issue with these parts (both available at Ferguson).

I don't have a problem staying with the cast iron as long as I am using a coupling. I think it will be stronger and it never hurts to be compliant with code. This will not cost more than PVC anyway.

I will cut out the bottom hub in my original picture and that will place it just above the height of the sink on the other side of the wall. The stack will be supported with a riser clamp at the next hub and side beam hangers, threaded rod, and a riser clamp from the joist above.

I assume that the 4" port will be large enough for any kind of tool or camera that would need to go down there and tools could be run in either direction.

Let me know what you think and especially if you think I should use the T56-44 product from Republic instead of the Jones Stephens from Ferguson (or something else).

LMHmedchem

 

[Geofd]

What you have listed at the bottom will work fine,any camera or large drain machine will have no issues

 

[Geofd]

It sounds like a lot, but you'll be fine just give yourself extra room for the clean out make you cut about 1/2" bigger than the fitting

 

[LMHmedchem]

As far as the side beam hangers go, does the threaded rod go through the riser clamp inside of the bolts to tighten the riser clamp or outside the bolts, or does it not matter?

Also, how far do you tighten the bolts on the riser clamp? Is there a torque setting? How far should the clamp close?

Thanks,

LMHmedchem

 

[Geofd]

The flat side of the beam clamp goes against the joist ,screw into the joist then thread the rod thru the 3/8" tapping I use 3/8 nuts against the both sides,I squeeze one side at a time with pliers until you can't tighten anyore

 

[LMHmedchem]

The flat side of the beam clamp goes against the joist

What side of the joist does the beam clamp fix to? Is it the bottom edge of the joist with the threading pointed at the stack, or is it the inside surface of the joist with the threading pointing to the floor?

It sounds like you are replacing the bolts that come with the clamp with the threaded rod that goes through the beam hanger. To support a vertical stack that would mean fixing the beam hangers to the bottom edge of the joist.

I was picturing something like,



with the beam hanger on a spacer on the inside of the joist above (this is a long rod and would be cut off an inch or so below the bottom nut). This would not allow me to close the clamp completely. The clamp would still be quite tight but I believe that the clamp should be completely closed to work properly. I could replace the 1/2" bolts in the riser clamp with an 1/2" eye fittings if that would make more sense, or at least make some sense.

I could also place the threaded rod next to the riser with the riser supported by the washers and add a U-bolt fitting on each side to keep it in place.

I am sorry for being annoyingly obtuse here on a Friday afternoon but I am having trouble picturing what this is supposed to look like. I am sure this is straight forward, and I'm sure it will be once I have done it.

LMHmedchem

 

[ESTIMATOR]

Hello,

I have a clogged main line that allows some slow drainage. I have tried main line cleaner (which has worked in the past) but that did not do the trick and I need to look at more direct methods. I could really use some advice at this point.

This house was built sometime in the 1870s. A few years ago I replace the water line. At that point, the city inspector said that the line that was replaced was installed in 1920 (concrete lined steel pipe). My guess is that the sewer line was installed at the same time. The house may not have had indoor plumbing before that.

There is a 1950s double sink in the basement that is right next to the stack. That is where things always back up when there is an issue. I guess that's not such a bad place if it has to happen. The sink drains into 2" PVC that picks up the drain from the washing machine and the empties into the stack below the floor. A few years ago I re-did the plumbing under the sink because it didn't have enough pitch. At that point I put a union into the sink vent to give me some access to the main. Here is a picture of the setup,

View attachment 35868

The distance between the floor and the first flange in the pipe is a bit less than 44". The cast iron pipe is 4" OD. The 2" PVC to the left is the plumbing from the double sink. The horizontal 2" PVC at the bottom is the drain from the washing machine. The union in the 2" PVC is in the vent for the sink. The 2" PVC enters the stack below the floor somewhere. I didn't do that so I have no idea what the junction looks like.

If I run the basement sink, the sink it will eventually fill with water. The water will go down slowly, so some water it getting through. If I flush a toilet when the sink has water in it, that will end up in the sink as well. I have tried a gallon of main line cleaner by going overnight without using any water to hopefully let all the water drain down to the blockage. I then opened the union and poured the gallon in and left if for 8 hours without using any water. Then I flushed with hot water.

I can run the snake in further then I could before but I am still hitting an obstruction and the sink is still filling with water if I let it run. Based on my measurements with the snake, the obstruction is just on the other side of the outside wall, which puts it under the front porch. What is odd is that the snake hits something where I cannot push the snake through by hand. If I apply a little power with the drill, the snake goes right forward. I have done this with the sink full of water and punching through does not seem to affect the rate of drain. I have gone forward and backward with the snake. I have powered the snake in some and then pulled it back by hand. I have powered the snake in some distance and then ran it backwards while pulling it out. None of this seems to make any difference, which doesn't make sense. How can the snake go through but the drain not clear at least some?

There used to be access to a "house trap" about 3' in front of where the stack goes into the floor. There were wooded boards that you could take up and see the pipe surrounded with gravel. The pipe had a threaded plug. I took up the carpet and was very surprised to find no sign of the clean-out. It must have been concreted over when the carpet was put down. I don't remember doing that but it just isn't there anymore.

At any rate, I need access for a camera (I am not sure I can get a scope down the 2" with the union and through the elbow) or a power auger, or both. The old clean-out was just a "T" and wouldn't have allowed access with the power auger anyway (unless it was a very small diameter snake). My first thought was to brace the horizontal on the first Y on the stack and cut into the the 44" vertical section of 4" cast iron pipe. I could then use Fernco fittings to install a 4" DWV PVC "Y" fitting there. I am worried that the stack could be weakened by that and crate a disaster above. The other option would be to cut open the floor and find the old clean-out and replace that with a Y. That has me a bit worried about breaking the pipe while trying to get to it, though I could likely replace anything that broke.

Sorry for the rather long post but I could really use some advice here.

Thanks,

LMHmedchem

You probably need to replace your underground sanitary/sewer piping. I'm sure your sewer pipe just outside of your home (front porch) has collapsed and allows the dirt and roots to penetrate inside your pipe.