Non-submersible pump for below grade toilet.

[JohnDS]

I know this question is out of the norm, but it's a serious question.

I have a basement bathroom that is below grade and also below the exterior cesspool/septic tank. The main sewer line is about 4ft above the basement floor.

So anyone who is familiar with this type of setup and if you want a normal looking bathroom, you usually dig a hole in the basement floor so it's lower than the toilet and shower, and install a plastic sump. All the bathroom fixtures then are piped under the cement to a main 3 inch or 4 inch pipe and eventually drains into the plastic sump. Then a submersible pump is installed in the sump and it obviously ejects the sewage out of the sump(about 4ft in my case), and into the main sewage line that runs out to the exterior septic tank/cesspool.

That being said, I don't want to do it this way. I don't like the idea of submersion of a pump in the pool of sewage that eventually will need repair or replacing. Instead I want to sit a pump on the cement floor beside the plastic sewage tub and have only a 3" or 4" pipe, piped into it(and a vent of course). The pipe will pipe into a valve then a union then into the intake of the pump. The discharge will pipe to a check valve, union, and valve, and into the main sewage line.

I know this is abnormal for a residential system and I know the traditional way of doing it is usually what is used,, but again,, I don't want that. I'm sorry but I'm not interested in those saniflo type systems either, as I prefer the bathroom to look normal(toilet and shower flush with the floor).

I'm sure I need some sort of inline mascerator and inline pump or a combo of such to make this work, but I'm having trouble finding what I need(probably cause it's abnormal, or maybe I don't have the correct terminology to search for the items I need). I also plan to install a 2 prong water probe that will trigger a relay and power the pump. Maybe a high level probe as well in the event of pump failure.

In any event, if I cant find the items I need for this, I was thinking of using the submersible pump, but instead of placing it inside the sewage tub,, I would place it above the sewage tub and maybe I can weld a fitting on the bottom of it so it can be piped to, without submerging it.

In the end, I want the pump/mascerstor to be able to be easily isolated in the event of needing repair/replacement, without the mess.

Can someone please help me find what I need to accomplish this? Thank you

 

[Geofd]

I know this question is out of the norm, but it's a serious question.

I have a basement bathroom that is below grade and also below the exterior cesspool/septic tank. The main sewer line is about 4ft above the basement floor.

So anyone who is familiar with this type of setup and if you want a normal looking bathroom, you usually dig a hole in the basement floor so it's lower than the toilet and shower, and install a plastic sump. All the bathroom fixtures then are piped under the cement to a main 3 inch or 4 inch pipe and eventually drains into the plastic sump. Then a submersible pump is installed in the sump and it obviously ejects the sewage out of the sump(about 4ft in my case), and into the main sewage line that runs out to the exterior septic tank/cesspool.

That being said, I don't want to do it this way. I don't like the idea of submersion of a pump in the pool of sewage that eventually will need repair or replacing. Instead I want to sit a pump on the cement floor beside the plastic sewage tub and have only a 3" or 4" pipe, piped into it(and a vent of course). The pipe will pipe into a valve then a union then into the intake of the pump. The discharge will pipe to a check valve, union, and valve, and into the main sewage line.

I know this is abnormal for a residential system and I know the traditional way of doing it is usually what is used,, but again,, I don't want that. I'm sorry but I'm not interested in those saniflo type systems either, as I prefer the bathroom to look normal(toilet and shower flush with the floor).

I'm sure I need some sort of inline mascerator and inline pump or a combo of such to make this work, but I'm having trouble finding what I need(probably cause it's abnormal, or maybe I don't have the correct terminology to search for the items I need). I also plan to install a 2 prong water probe that will trigger a relay and power the pump. Maybe a high level probe as well in the event of pump failure.

In any event, if I cant find the items I need for this, I was thinking of using the submersible pump, but instead of placing it inside the sewage tub,, I would place it above the sewage tub and maybe I can weld a fitting on the bottom of it so it can be piped to, without submerging it.

In the end, I want the pump/mascerstor to be able to be easily isolated in the event of needing repair/replacement, without the mess.

Can someone please help me find what I need to accomplish this? Thank you

Have you researched this not sure there is anything out there like what you describe the only thing i would suggest is talk to a specialty company who make tanks for lab waste systems, they custom make tanks and systems

 

[RS]

They make submersible sewage pumps specifically for this purpose, and they work very well. I think most will run 10-20 years depending on use. And when they fail, it's not that bad to work on them.

 

[SHEPLMBR]

You can check into something like a Saniflo system.

 

[Twowaxhack]

You can check into something like a Saniflo system.

He’s not interested in those

 

[JohnDS]

Have you researched this not sure there is anything out there like what you describe the only thing i would suggest is talk to a specialty company who make tanks for lab waste systems, they custom make tanks and systems

I have researched inline sewage pumps. I'm just not sure what to get with sizes, horse power, PSI rating cause I don't want it to pump too hard. So far, I couldn't find one with some sort of mascerator built in, if it needs it. I looked up cemtrifugal sewage pumps as well.

I don't know what the bottom of a submersible pump looks like. Is it just a hole in the bottom or does it have threads? Is it steel? I'm wondering if I can just weld a fitting on the bottom which would solve this issue cause I can just locate it where I want, but then again, will the submersible have enough power to pull the sewage out of the pit this located this way?

 

[Twowaxhack]

I have researched inline sewage pumps. I'm just not sure what to get with sizes, horse power, PSI rating cause I don't want it to pump too hard. So far, I couldn't find one with some sort of mascerator built in, if it needs it. I looked up cemtrifugal sewage pumps as well.

I don't know what the bottom of a submersible pump looks like. Is it just a hole in the bottom or does it have threads? Is it steel? I'm wondering if I can just weld a fitting on the bottom which would solve this issue cause I can just locate it where I want, but then again, will the submersible have enough power to pull the sewage out of the pit this located this way?

It would probably be better if you just walked upstairs to the bathroom rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

You’re going to end up with a costly mess that doesn’t work.

 

[RS]

I have never seen a submersible pump with any way to hook a pipe to the suction, they are designed to be immersed in the liquid. If you were able to rig one up to lift the liquid out of the pit, if it ever lost it's prime it would just run until it burned up. Submersible pumps immersed in liquids can't loose their prime, and are very reliable. Submersible pumps also rely on the surrounding liquid to cool them, if you were able to mount one above the pit it would overheat.

 

[MicEd69]

JohnDS, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by, "I prefer the bathroom to look normal (toilet and shower flush with the floor)." The toilet is on the floor with a Saniflo toilet or a Liberty Pumps Ascent II Macerating toilet. Your requirement would still need a back discharge toilet, and the macerating pump can be installed in the other side of the wall, providing you don't want the toilet against the basement wall.

And if the shower is at floor level, the only way for water flow out of the shower is down below the floor.

I think you need to reconsider using something tried and proven for your toilet; Saniflow or Liberty. For your shower located on the basement floor, the only thing you can do is install a sump and sump pump for this gray water. That would not be too difficult and there are tons of these in homes. And as the sump would not have toilet discharge, it would be much "cleaner" to work on.

 

[JohnDS]

JohnDS, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by, "I prefer the bathroom to look normal (toilet and shower flush with the floor)." The toilet is on the floor with a Saniflo toilet or a Liberty Pumps Ascent II Macerating toilet. Your requirement would still need a back discharge toilet, and the macerating pump can be installed in the other side of the wall, providing you don't want the toilet against the basement wall.

And if the shower is at floor level, the only way for water flow out of the shower is down below the floor.

I think you need to reconsider using something tried and proven for your toilet; Saniflow or Liberty. For your shower located on the basement floor, the only thing you can do is install a sump and sump pump for this gray water. That would not be too difficult and there are tons of these in homes. And as the sump would not have toilet discharge, it would be much "cleaner" to work on.

Thank you. I really appreciate the response. I plan to have a panless shower. What I meant earlier is I saw some systems where the toilet sits on some sort of tub. Yes I've seen the saniflow systems. The idea sounds pretty cool, but I do not like the way they look still. The toilets look funny to me, like cheapish.

I will have to reconsider if I can't find what I'm looking for. I'm not doubting that the tried and proven and traditional way work. I just don't see how it's practical. What I am trying to accomplish, I really don't see what's wrong with it except that it's not something people are used to installing.

Do they have things available to accomplish what I plan to do?

If not, you mentioned "Liberty". I saw that they sell a kit on Amazon but wasn't sure if it was a good brand. Are those the ones you are referring to?

Right now my basement is split. One side will be an apartment with a kitchen sink, laundry, bath sink, shower, toilet. I was thinking since I would do the underground for these items, maybe I should plan for a future full bath on the other side of the basement as well.

Considering this, what size sump/pit and pump should I get and how many horsepower?

Would 4in DWV be enough to supply:
- 1 Kithchen sink
- 1 laundry
- 2 bath sinks
- 2 toilets
- 2 showers

Thank you for your time.

 

[MicEd69]

Thank you. I really appreciate the response. I plan to have a panless shower. What I meant earlier is I saw some systems where the toilet sits on some sort of tub. Yes I've seen the saniflow systems. The idea sounds pretty cool, but I do not like the way they look still. The toilets look funny to me, like cheapish.

I will have to reconsider if I can't find what I'm looking for. I'm not doubting that the tried and proven and traditional way work. I just don't see how it's practical. What I am trying to accomplish, I really don't see what's wrong with it except that it's not something people are used to installing.

Do they have things available to accomplish what I plan to do?

If not, you mentioned "Liberty". I saw that they sell a kit on Amazon but wasn't sure if it was a good brand. Are those the ones you are referring to?

Right now my basement is split. One side will be an apartment with a kitchen sink, laundry, bath sink, shower, toilet. I was thinking since I would do the underground for these items, maybe I should plan for a future full bath on the other side of the basement as well.

Considering this, what size sump/pit and pump should I get and how many horsepower?

Would 4in DWV be enough to supply:
- 1 Kithchen sink
- 1 laundry
- 2 bath sinks
- 2 toilets
- 2 showers

Thank you for your time.

If the panless shower is on the floor, where does the water go? I just don't know how you are expecting to catch the water from the shower without it flowing into a sump under the floor slab. With that said, I don't think there is anything that exists that will do what you are wanting to do.

A 4" main is just fine. Liberty is a good brand, but there are others out there as well for whole house sumps and macerating pumps. So, if you are going the traditional way with all underground lines flowing into an underground sump, you should contact them and others for their recommendation.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I’d go with a 24” x 60” fiberglass basin with three switch floats. On, off and high water alarm. Have the alarm wired on a separate circuit than the pump.

Size and type pump would vary depending on specific conditions. High head grinders or just 2” solids sewage pumps.

I use systems like this for whole homes and they operate for years between service typically. But they are a maintenance item. Electrical and mechanical things break and wear out.

The high water alarm will tell you when the pump fails so you don’t end up with a flooded pit. I like to install a hose Bibb close by to wash everything down when service is needed.

 

[JohnDS]

If the panless shower is on the floor, where does the water go? I just don't know how you are expecting to catch the water from the shower without it flowing into a sump under the floor slab. With that said, I don't think there is anything that exists that will do what you are wanting to do.

A 4" main is just fine. Liberty is a good brand, but there are others out there as well for whole house sumps and macerating pumps. So, if you are going the traditional way with all underground lines flowing into an underground sump, you should contact them and others for their recommendation.

Thanks. I have stated that I would in fact have a sump/pit with the plan I had in mind. The difference is I wanted the pump outside the pit as opposed to inside it.

Thank you for your advice.

 

[MicEd69]

Thanks. I have stated that I would in fact have a sump/pit with the plan I had in mind. The difference is I wanted the pump outside the pit as opposed to inside it.

Thank you for your advice.

Sorry, I misunderstood and apparently misread you first post about the sump part.

Bottom line is that the currently available sewage systems with a submerged pump will be more reliable and less maintenance than any non-engineered system that you could put together using a pump mounted at grade. And to have such a system engineered would be cost prohibitive and still probably wouldn't be as reliable as the proven ones commercially available.

 

[JohnDS]

Thanks guys. I'm probably going to go with the submerged like everyone else..

I was thinking since I was doing all the underground for the bathroom, I might as well rough for a second bath. To make things simple, I did a back to back mirror image. I'm most likely wrong with my diagram, but hopefully I'm not too far off. I'll attach 2 images(one of the plan and one of an isometric drawing I did my best at).

So it will be:
1) Kitchen sink
1) Laundry
2) showers
2) bath sinks
2) toilets

I didn't have enough room on the paper, but that 2" vent for the Laundry was supposed to tie into the 3".

Kitchen sink drain is above ground and will run behind the wall and eventually tie into the 4" as it enters sump.

If someone can make this simpler or correct it. Thanks you.

 

[MicEd69]

Thanks guys. I'm probably going to go with the submerged like everyone else..

I was thinking since I was doing all the underground for the bathroom, I might as well rough for a second bath. To make things simple, I did a back to back mirror image. I'm most likely wrong with my diagram, but hopefully I'm not too far off. I'll attach 2 images(one of the plan and one of an isometric drawing I did my best at).

So it will be:
1) Kitchen sink
1) Laundry
2) showers
2) bath sinks
2) toilets

I didn't have enough room on the paper, but that 2" vent for the Laundry was supposed to tie into the 3".

Kitchen sink drain is above ground and will run behind the wall and eventually tie into the 4" as it enters sump.

If someone can make this simpler or correct it. Thanks you.
View attachment 34227
View attachment 34228

Your iso doesn't have a vent for either shower or either toilet. And with your toilets that close back-to-back, you will have to connect them to the main line further downstream and vent them there. The two sinks are fine, and just remember the kitchen sink will need to be vented as well.

 

[JohnDS]

Your iso doesn't have a vent for either shower or either toilet. And with your toilets that close back-to-back, you will have to connect them to the main line further downstream and vent them there. The two sinks are fine, and just remember the kitchen sink will need to be vented as well.

1) Oh yea, I forgot the vent for the other shower. But the shower near the laundry I have a vent there. Are you saying it can not share the laundry vent?

2) The 3" vent was meant for the toilets. I'm not sure if you saw that. But either way, I'm confused by what you mean connecting them further downstream. They are probably only 5' from the sump. Can I put the 3" vent before the toilets instead(between the shower and toilets)? I really wanted to put the 3" line right at the intersection of the toilets at the 4" main but not sure if they have a 5-way fitting.

3) Kitchen sink vent, yes. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[MicEd69]

A vent is required for every P-trap and toilet, and yes, they can be shared if installed properly. Your one shower is POSSIBLY wet vented through the washing machine drain and vent, but I'm not sure if that is allowed. If it is, you probably need to increase the branch line from the 4" main to the washing machine riser to 3". I'm not sure, but Twowaxhack can answer that for sure. And the connection from the shower to the branch needs to be properly done per wet vent connection requirements. The other shower needs a dry vent which must come off the branch vertically or no more than 45 degrees off vertical. I'm also not sure you can use a double fixture fitting there as your sketch sort of shows, but perhaps a double wye will work if you move that connection further downstream and can get a vent in for the shower.

Now for the back-to-back toilets, I'm pretty sure they cannot enter the 4" main that close together. You will need to use a double wye further downstream with the vent located there or a pair of single wyes one after the other. I know you don't have much room, but the problem is the washing machine really pumps out the water, and the new toilets flush pretty hard. If you use double fixture fittings in these two places, the washing machine heavy flow will push through the fixture towards the other shower. And when one toilet flushes, it will push wastes towards the other toilet. Not good.

 

[JohnDS]

A vent is required for every P-trap and toilet, and yes, they can be shared if installed properly. Your one shower is POSSIBLY wet vented through the washing machine drain and vent, but I'm not sure if that is allowed. If it is, you probably need to increase the branch line from the 4" main to the washing machine riser to 3". I'm not sure, but Twowaxhack can answer that for sure. And the connection from the shower to the branch needs to be properly done per wet vent connection requirements. The other shower needs a dry vent which must come off the branch vertically or no more than 45 degrees off vertical. I'm also not sure you can use a double fixture fitting there as your sketch sort of shows, but perhaps a double wye will work if you move that connection further downstream and can get a vent in for the shower.

Now for the back-to-back toilets, I'm pretty sure they cannot enter the 4" main that close together. You will need to use a double wye further downstream with the vent located there or a pair of single wyes one after the other. I know you don't have much room, but the problem is the washing machine really pumps out the water, and the new toilets flush pretty hard. If you use double fixture fittings in these two places, the washing machine heavy flow will push through the fixture towards the other shower. And when one toilet flushes, it will push wastes towards the other toilet. Not good.

Thanks for your time and help. Not to confuse things further, I think I have a better sketch after gathering what I think you're saying. Will this be good?

The problem I see in this sketch is that I'm not sure I can get the "no more than 3' to a vent" rule with the showers. The shower drains are already 2.5" from the wall which would make it a little shy of 3' to just to the "Y" if put on a 45°. The toilets however, I think I can make the distance work to the vent.

1) So would the vents work as shown in this new sketch?

2) Would this avoid the back to back problem you were talking about with the toilets and also the washing machine flowing into the other shower?

Thanks.

 

[MicEd69]

Thanks for your time and help. Not to confuse things further, I think I have a better sketch after gathering what I think you're saying. Will this be good?

The problem I see in this sketch is that I'm not sure I can get the "no more than 3' to a vent" rule with the showers. The shower drains are already 2.5" from the wall which would make it a little shy of 3' to just to the "Y" if put on a 45°. The toilets however, I think I can make the distance work to the vent.

1) So would the vents work as shown in this new sketch?

2) Would this avoid the back to back problem you were talking about with the toilets and also the washing machine flowing into the other shower?

Thanks.
View attachment 34278

Venting can be tricky. What seems like may work, and things that will likely work, can be agaist code requirements. I'm not sure what code you are under, but I've never heard of a 3 foot rule fort a shower vent. UPC has a 5 foot distance from the weir, that is the closest downstream side of the P-trap to closest edge of the vent pipe, and IPC has an 8 foot maximum requirement. Now for a toilet, it's kinda weird. UPC says 6 feet, but the IPC distance is unlimited.

First for your toilets connection, I would suggest a Double Wye Reducing 4x4x3x3.


Then for a vent, immediately downstream of this fitting you can use a Combo Wye & 1/8 Bend Reducing 4x4x2 with the 2" pointing up and installed like if flow would come down the 2" branch it would flow towards the sump.



Now for your showers connection. It too can be a Double Wye Reducing 4x4x2x2. See the above table.

Venting here is more of a problem. I'm thinking the shower vents need to be on the trap arm, that is the 2" lines going to the Double Wye Reducing 4x4x2x2. Those vents need to come off the drain line vertically or no more than 45 degrees off vertical. Those vents can be a Sanitee Reducing 2x2x1 1/2 with the 1 1/2" pointing up or rolled at a 45 degree angle to get into your wall and then 45 up to vertical. That may not be possible with your current design. It would likely work to vent the showers in the main line just like the toilets, but I do not think that would be per code.

However, the answer to your tight space and shower venting may be to just angle both shower drains towards your sump and have those enter your sump separately from your 4" main. You would easily be able to install your P-trap and sanitee vent up the wall that is next to your sump.

Now even with your original plan, your main could have been a 3 inch, which will carry 20 Drainage Fixture Units (DFU), and you have 14 DFUs. Now if you proceed with the showers draining directly in your sump, you should really change your main to 3". ANd don't forget to add accessible cleanouts.