Need well pump information ~

[jkk]

Hello,
I am new at this site and need some information on the used Goulds pump that I have purchased for an emergency situation in case an existing pump fails while I get a new pump.

I really don't have much knowledge about the pump but some systems like how to install pressure tanks and pressure switches and electrical matters and how the system works etc.

I have a 230ft deep well and 120ft drop poly pipe replaced from galvanized pipe to poly pipe in 2016 with a 2hp 20gal Sta-Rite pump installed in Jan, 2006 by local well contractor

Also, I installed two 120 gal pressure tanks on 10 years ago with 40-60 psi setup and filter tank next to the pressure tank on 6 years ago by myself.

The reason I installed the filter tank was because when the drop pipe was a galvanized pipe which had produced so much rust debris from the pipe it caused plugging my mini irrigation system.

After replacing the poly pipe, there were no more debris problems but I never removed it.

The main water pvc pipe runs about 350 ft from the well and 15 ft lower elevation.

Also, installed DEFINITE PURPOSE CONTACTOR for main switch.

The well system never had any problem except replacing the pressure switch one time.

Recently, there was no water in the house. I thought the well pump failed because of age but it wasn't. but the main pvc pipe was broken and repaired easily.

But I was very concerned about sudden no water so I bought a reconditioned well pump from a local guy who rebuilt the old pump

The model number is 13EM1-5412 and the guy told me the pump is 13 stage and 13 gpm 1 1/2 hp.

I couldn't find any info for the pump online.

My question is if members here have any information for the pump and whether the pump should be good for temporary usage or not.( i have a new 2hp control box)
Thanks in advance.
Jkk

 

[Valveman]

I can't find any info on that pump either. It has 12 stage written on the side, which would be correct for a 13GS15. IN all my years I have never seen that model number? Anyway, it is hard to store a motor for a standby pump. The water in the motor will have leaked or evaporated form sitting on the shelf. If you do not top off the water in the motor before installing the spare pump, it won't last very long. Pumps can be stored forever, but not motors.

You would be much better off with a Cycle Stop Valve and a small tank than those two huge pressure tanks. Having had to replace the pressure switch already is the first sign the pump is cycling on and off too much. Not only would a CSV make the pump last longer while using a much smaller tank, but would deliver strong constant pressure to the showers instead of the widely varying pressure you see now with those big tanks.

 

[jkk]

I can't find any info on that pump either. It has 12 stage written on the side, which would be correct for a 13GS15. IN all my years I have never seen that model number? Anyway, it is hard to store a motor for a standby pump. The water in the motor will have leaked or evaporated form sitting on the shelf. If you do not top off the water in the motor before installing the spare pump, it won't last very long. Pumps can be stored forever, but not motors.

You would be much better off with a Cycle Stop Valve and a small tank than those two huge pressure tanks. Having had to replace the pressure switch already is the first sign the pump is cycling on and off too much. Not only would a CSV make the pump last longer while using a much smaller tank, but would deliver strong constant pressure to the showers instead of the widely varying pressure you see now with those big tanks.

Thank you for replying.

Thank you for replying.
I never thought about or knew about the cycle stop valve with a small pressure tank.
The reason to install the two big pressure tanks is to prevent pump short cycles.

Sounds like it is a lot more efficient than replacing the huge pressure tank,

I researched about it but not quite understand how it works for preventing the short cycles and durability compared to my 2 pressure tanks system.

Would you please explain a little more details about it?

will be much appreciated
Thanks
Jkk

 

[psklein578]

Your pump head is a Gould's pump. A 1.5 horsepower motor is used on that pump.

 

[Valveman]

Thank you for replying.

Thank you for replying.
I never thought about or knew about the cycle stop valve with a small pressure tank.
The reason to install the two big pressure tanks is to prevent pump short cycles.

Sounds like it is a lot more efficient than replacing the huge pressure tank,

I researched about it but not quite understand how it works for preventing the short cycles and durability compared to my 2 pressure tanks system.

Would you please explain a little more details about it?

will be much appreciated
Thanks
Jkk



View attachment 34242

You can't put in a large enough or enough quantity of tanks to keep a pump from cycling. But over thirty years ago big pressure tanks where the best option. Now all you need is a cycle Stop Valve and a small tank, which will do a much better job at much less expense than a couple of big tanks. To be such a simple valve, the CSV has a complicated explanation. This little video is the best way I know to explain it.

 

[jkk]

You can't put in a large enough or enough quantity of tanks to keep a pump from cycling. But over thirty years ago big pressure tanks where the best option. Now all you need is a cycle Stop Valve and a small tank, which will do a much better job at much less expense than a couple of big tanks. To be such a simple valve, the CSV has a complicated explanation. This little video is the best way I know to explain it.

Thank you for replying.

Whenever I try to change something, I have to carefully research the matter.

And found the CSV pro reviews and con reviews.

Specifically following youtube for critical negative reviews.

Would you please share what you think?

Thanks,
Jkk

 

[Valveman]

We only get the intelligent customers. Those that can't see this guy is an idiot will never know the benefits of a CSV. You won't find a single pump engineer or pump company say any of those things about a CSV because none of them are true. But that guy in the Philippines has a lot of videos on anything that can drive controversy because he gets paid for the clicks. He is very good at making videos and throwing numbers around to make it look like he knows what he is talking about. But to anyone who understands pumps, everything he says is laughable. Youtube or US lawyers can't do anything about it because he makes sure to say those are his "opinions", and he is not stating any facts. Hate to see he got another click. I will pay $1,000.00 to anyone who can get a pump manufacturer to say anything negative about a CSV in writing. The CSV is such a perfect pump control that pump manufacturers classify it as a "disruptive product" as it makes pump systems last so much longer than normal.

 

[jkk]

delete

 

[jkk]

We only get the intelligent customers. Those that can't see this guy is an idiot will never know the benefits of a CSV. You won't find a single pump engineer or pump company say any of those things about a CSV because none of them are true. But that guy in the Philippines has a lot of videos on anything that can drive controversy because he gets paid for the clicks. He is very good at making videos and throwing numbers around to make it look like he knows what he is talking about. But to anyone who understands pumps, everything he says is laughable. Youtube or US lawyers can't do anything about it because he makes sure to say those are his "opinions", and he is not stating any facts. Hate to see he got another click. I will pay $1,000.00 to anyone who can get a pump manufacturer to say anything negative about a CSV in writing. The CSV is such a perfect pump control that pump manufacturers classify it as a "disruptive product" as it makes pump systems last so much longer than normal.

Thank you for responding.
One more question.

Let's say a common sense of the CVS system with 1-2 gallon pressure tank and conventional pressure tank system.

I have two 120 gal pressure tanks and set up 40-60.

The actual holding water is 36 gallons total 72 gallons of water in tanks.



Typical household is flushing the water 10 times per day with 1.5 gallons of toilet

If this scenario is existing then the CVS system would be turned on and off 10 times or more but none of the conventional system.

I am not a professional and don't want to argue with you but need to know what the actual CVS system is that is really beneficial to the well owners like me.

Thanks.

Jkk

 

[Valveman]

I know it seems wrong to use a smaller pressure tank for a water pump system. But many things about pumps are counter intuitive. Pumps like to run 24/7/365, but you wouldn't think so. Restricting the flow of a pump with a valve makes the pumps work easier, even though you would think it harder on a pump. Using the smallest wire possible for a submersible pump reduces the starting torque and gives the pump/motor a soft start, but you would think larger wire would be better.

Big pressure tanks cause longer time periods of low pressure as it takes longer for the pressure to drop to 40 before the pump will start and delivers up to 60 PSI for a while. A 119 gallon size tank will cost upwards of a thousand bucks, takes up a lot of space, and takes a lot of heat as it fills with 30 gallons of cold water with each pump cycle.

The CSV can be used WITH your 119 gallon tank to create the least number of cycles possible no matter how the water is being used. The large tank would deliver 30 gallons as the pressure falls from 60 to 40 PSI. Once the pump starts at 40 the CSV would let the tank fill to 58 PSI where it would maintain 58 PSI constant and never let the pump cycle off as long as you are using more than 1 GPM for irrigation or some other long term use of water. The large tank would supply the toilet and sinks without cycling the pump on until the 30 gallons are gone. Then the CSV would take over for any uses of water like sprinklers and showers, and eliminate all cycles for long term uses of water. Regardless of how you use water, you couldn't get fewer pump cycles than that.

It is also more efficient energy wise to use a large pressure tank than to restrict the pumps flow with a valve. But the difference in energy cost will never pay for the extra expense of the big tank. Doing the math I have found it takes from 30 to 70 years of energy savings to pay for a large pressure tank.

As was said, because of the CSV your 119 gallon pressure tank is just a waste of money and space and causing you to experience low pressure problems in the house and showers. Although the small pressure tank with a CSV causes the pump to cycle for small uses of water like flushing a toilet, the CSV eliminates all cycles for long tern uses of water like showers and sprinklers. When water is for house use only this causes the number of cycles when using a CSV and small tank to be the same as when using a larger tank and no CSV.

When a shower, sink, or any water is being used in the house, the pump is already running and flushing a toilet doesn't cause an extra cycle. The CSV was set for the shower. When you flush a toilet the CSV just opens to supply the toilet, then resets itself to run the shower, but the pump never cycles. The small tank is more a mechanical timer than for water storage. After turning off all water in the house, the CSV slowly fills the small tank for another minute or so before letting the pump shut off. This is to make sure everyone in the house is finished using water before the pump shuts off. Most people in a house use water at about the same time of day. So, within a minute of someone turning water off, if another person turns on water or flushes a toilet, the pump continues to run and does not cycle. This usually keeps the pump running continuously for a while when people are using water, instead of the pump cycling on and off as it would with just a large pressure tank.

Everything changes if you have any irrigation running. Without a CSV, even with a large tank, irrigation demands can cause hundreds of pump cycles per day. With a CSV, the pump never cycles once for an irrigation system, which takes out hundreds and hundreds of pump cycles over time.

Not only does the CSV and small tank cause less cycling than a system with a large tank and no CSV, but the pressure to the house is always strong and constant 50 PSI, instead of oscillating between 40 and 60 over and over. With the small tank you also do not have 30 gallons of water sitting in a rubber bad getting stale and warm. The CSV and small tank delivers fresh cool water straight from the well at strong constant pressure to the showers or any use in or around the house.

You need to understand that pumps are counter intuitive. If you want it to make common sense, you need to think just the opposite of what your brain is telling you. Restricting a pump with a valve makes the pumps work easier. Using a CSV and smaller tank will save you money and deliver stronger constant pressure to the showers. The CSV can save even more because the shower pressure will be so strong you will no longer even need soap. Lol!

With any other pump control there is always some limitations.

When using a pressure tank only (of any size), all irrigation zones must perfectly match the maximum output of the pump. Any lesser flow rate (small sprinkler zone or hose watering) will cause the pump to cycle itself to death.

With variable speed or VFD, you cannot use less than the minimum cooling flow required for the pump/motor. Using less than 2-3 GPM can cause the VFD controlled pump to ramp up and down destructively.

So called "tankless" controls, as comes on many booster pumps have a flow switch with about a 0.5 GPM minimum flow. Although they are notorious for having other failures as well, using or leaking less than 0.5 GPM (running toilet) will cycle this type pump until all the smoke comes out of it.

To be such a simple valve the CSV has a complicated explanation. But it has so many benefits it is worth researching or just trying one to see for yourself. One of the many reasons the CSV is the most perfect pump control is that there is no flow rate that is prohibited. No limitations. You can have a 0.1 GPM leak, use water from zero GPMs to as much as the pump can produce, and run water for a few minutes a day or 24/7/365 for 40 years. Although the CSV can be used with any size tank, even with as small as a 4.5 gallon size tank there is no flow rate you can leak or use that will harm the pump in any way. That, and the fact that the CSV is such a simple and inexpensive solution to nearly every pump problem is exactly why pump companies don't like it.

When you use a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the pump cycling on and off, it also eliminates problems with most other components in a water system. Stopping the cycling saves check valves, pressure switches, tank bladders, wires from chaffing, pumps from torqueing, wells from being surged up and down, and many other things as well as saving the pump/motor.

Just wish it wasn't so hard to explain. If using a smaller pressure tank "doesn't make sense" then use a CSV with any size tank you want. But you will quickly realize the larger tank isn't necessary at all, and is actually a detriment to strong constant pressure.

 

[Valveman]

You can see how it works here.

 

[Valveman]

You can play with how it works here.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/animation

 

[jkk]

I know it seems wrong to use a smaller pressure tank for a water pump system. But many things about pumps are counter intuitive. Pumps like to run 24/7/365, but you wouldn't think so. Restricting the flow of a pump with a valve makes the pumps work easier, even though you would think it harder on a pump. Using the smallest wire possible for a submersible pump reduces the starting torque and gives the pump/motor a soft start, but you would think larger wire would be better.

Big pressure tanks cause longer time periods of low pressure as it takes longer for the pressure to drop to 40 before the pump will start and delivers up to 60 PSI for a while. A 119 gallon size tank will cost upwards of a thousand bucks, takes up a lot of space, and takes a lot of heat as it fills with 30 gallons of cold water with each pump cycle.

The CSV can be used WITH your 119 gallon tank to create the least number of cycles possible no matter how the water is being used. The large tank would deliver 30 gallons as the pressure falls from 60 to 40 PSI. Once the pump starts at 40 the CSV would let the tank fill to 58 PSI where it would maintain 58 PSI constant and never let the pump cycle off as long as you are using more than 1 GPM for irrigation or some other long term use of water. The large tank would supply the toilet and sinks without cycling the pump on until the 30 gallons are gone. Then the CSV would take over for any uses of water like sprinklers and showers, and eliminate all cycles for long term uses of water. Regardless of how you use water, you couldn't get fewer pump cycles than that.

It is also more efficient energy wise to use a large pressure tank than to restrict the pumps flow with a valve. But the difference in energy cost will never pay for the extra expense of the big tank. Doing the math I have found it takes from 30 to 70 years of energy savings to pay for a large pressure tank.

As was said, because of the CSV your 119 gallon pressure tank is just a waste of money and space and causing you to experience low pressure problems in the house and showers. Although the small pressure tank with a CSV causes the pump to cycle for small uses of water like flushing a toilet, the CSV eliminates all cycles for long tern uses of water like showers and sprinklers. When water is for house use only this causes the number of cycles when using a CSV and small tank to be the same as when using a larger tank and no CSV.

When a shower, sink, or any water is being used in the house, the pump is already running and flushing a toilet doesn't cause an extra cycle. The CSV was set for the shower. When you flush a toilet the CSV just opens to supply the toilet, then resets itself to run the shower, but the pump never cycles. The small tank is more a mechanical timer than for water storage. After turning off all water in the house, the CSV slowly fills the small tank for another minute or so before letting the pump shut off. This is to make sure everyone in the house is finished using water before the pump shuts off. Most people in a house use water at about the same time of day. So, within a minute of someone turning water off, if another person turns on water or flushes a toilet, the pump continues to run and does not cycle. This usually keeps the pump running continuously for a while when people are using water, instead of the pump cycling on and off as it would with just a large pressure tank.

Everything changes if you have any irrigation running. Without a CSV, even with a large tank, irrigation demands can cause hundreds of pump cycles per day. With a CSV, the pump never cycles once for an irrigation system, which takes out hundreds and hundreds of pump cycles over time.

Not only does the CSV and small tank cause less cycling than a system with a large tank and no CSV, but the pressure to the house is always strong and constant 50 PSI, instead of oscillating between 40 and 60 over and over. With the small tank you also do not have 30 gallons of water sitting in a rubber bad getting stale and warm. The CSV and small tank delivers fresh cool water straight from the well at strong constant pressure to the showers or any use in or around the house.

You need to understand that pumps are counter intuitive. If you want it to make common sense, you need to think just the opposite of what your brain is telling you. Restricting a pump with a valve makes the pumps work easier. Using a CSV and smaller tank will save you money and deliver stronger constant pressure to the showers. The CSV can save even more because the shower pressure will be so strong you will no longer even need soap. Lol!

With any other pump control there is always some limitations.

When using a pressure tank only (of any size), all irrigation zones must perfectly match the maximum output of the pump. Any lesser flow rate (small sprinkler zone or hose watering) will cause the pump to cycle itself to death.

With variable speed or VFD, you cannot use less than the minimum cooling flow required for the pump/motor. Using less than 2-3 GPM can cause the VFD controlled pump to ramp up and down destructively.

So called "tankless" controls, as comes on many booster pumps have a flow switch with about a 0.5 GPM minimum flow. Although they are notorious for having other failures as well, using or leaking less than 0.5 GPM (running toilet) will cycle this type pump until all the smoke comes out of it.

To be such a simple valve the CSV has a complicated explanation. But it has so many benefits it is worth researching or just trying one to see for yourself. One of the many reasons the CSV is the most perfect pump control is that there is no flow rate that is prohibited. No limitations. You can have a 0.1 GPM leak, use water from zero GPMs to as much as the pump can produce, and run water for a few minutes a day or 24/7/365 for 40 years. Although the CSV can be used with any size tank, even with as small as a 4.5 gallon size tank there is no flow rate you can leak or use that will harm the pump in any way. That, and the fact that the CSV is such a simple and inexpensive solution to nearly every pump problem is exactly why pump companies don't like it.

When you use a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the pump cycling on and off, it also eliminates problems with most other components in a water system. Stopping the cycling saves check valves, pressure switches, tank bladders, wires from chaffing, pumps from torqueing, wells from being surged up and down, and many other things as well as saving the pump/motor.

Just wish it wasn't so hard to explain. If using a smaller pressure tank "doesn't make sense" then use a CSV with any size tank you want. But you will quickly realize the larger tank isn't necessary at all, and is actually a detriment to strong constant pressure.



View attachment 34380

Thank you so much for your time and explaining the CSV system.

My pump is 2 hp 20 GPM and water coming from 350ft far way to pressure tank and 120ft drop pipes.

So I will say 10gpm because of pump head

Most pipe sizes are less than 1 1/4" after the pressure tank.

Example, my house has a 3/4" pipe system and 1" pipes in the yard and irrigation system.

That means once the pressure is under 40 PSI then the pump turns on and refills the tank for a while but it still reaches 60 psi then turns off even watering the yard or garden continuously.

Of course I never set up to turn on the others while using one area.

That means only one area at the time.

Probably the most effective way is the CVS valve with a big pressure tank for my situation.


Thanks.

Jkk

 

[sarg]

Just a FYI ......... I installed mine last year........... NO REGRETS.

 

[Valveman]

Thank you so much for your time and explaining the CSV system.

My pump is 2 hp 20 GPM and water coming from 350ft far way to pressure tank and 120ft drop pipes.

So I will say 10gpm because of pump head

Most pipe sizes are less than 1 1/4" after the pressure tank.

Example, my house has a 3/4" pipe system and 1" pipes in the yard and irrigation system.

That means once the pressure is under 40 PSI then the pump turns on and refills the tank for a while but it still reaches 60 psi then turns off even watering the yard or garden continuously.

Of course I never set up to turn on the others while using one area.

That means only one area at the time.

Probably the most effective way is the CVS valve with a big pressure tank for my situation.


Thanks.

Jkk

Horizontal distance makes very little difference. With 120' of drop pipe and needing 50 PSI you can't have over 230' of head on the pump. At 230' of head a 2HP, 20 GPM wants to pump about 23 GPM. The pipes after your tank are not even large enough to let you use 23 GPM, so the pump is probably always cycling, no matter how much water you are using. With that size pump I would use a 10 gallon size tank with a CSV1A as comes in the PK1A kit. If you already have a larger tank adding the CSV1A is the easiest thing to do. But when you need to replace that tank a 10 gallon size is all you need.

 

[MicEd69]

Using the smallest wire possible for a submersible pump reduces the starting torque and gives the pump/motor a soft start, but you would think larger wire would be better.

Valveman, good explanation of the CSV, but I don't quite understand your statement above about wire size. Wire size is determined by the full load amps of the motor and the environmental conditions around the wire. Once the wire size is determined by these factors, that is the size wire that should be used. Running a smaller wire than that calculation provides can result in wire failure.

So, the question is, how can wire size have any impact whatsoever on the starting torque of the motor?

 

[Valveman]

Quote from page 36 in the Franklin AIM manual.

"Reduced-voltage starters may not be required if the maximum recommended cable length is used. With maximum recommended cable length there is a 5% voltage drop in the cable at running amps, resulting in about 20% reduction in starting current and about 36% reduction in starting torque compared to having rated voltage at the motor. This may be enough reduction in starting current so that reduced-voltage starters are not required."

 

[jkk]

Horizontal distance makes very little difference. With 120' of drop pipe and needing 50 PSI you can' have over 230' of head on the pump. At 230' of head a 2HP, 20 GPM wants to pump about 23 GPM. The pipes after your tank are not even large enough to let you use 23 GPM, so the pump is probably always cycling, no matter how much water you are using. With that size pump I would use a 10 gallon size tank with a CSV1A as comes in the PK1A kit. If you already have a larger tank adding the CSV1A is the easiest thing to do. But when you need to replace that tank a 10 gallon size is all you need.

Great information
Thank you again.
really, appreciate
Jkk

 

[Valveman]

Great information
Thank you again.
really, appreciate
Jkk

If your irrigation is tied into the main 1 1/4" line, the CSV needs to be installed prior to the tee to the irrigation.

 

[MicEd69]

Quote from page 36 in the Franklin AIM manual.

"Reduced-voltage starters may not be required if the maximum recommended cable length is used. With maximum recommended cable length there is a 5% voltage drop in the cable at running amps, resulting in about 20% reduction in starting current and about 36% reduction in starting torque compared to having rated voltage at the motor. This may be enough reduction in starting current so that reduced-voltage starters are not required."

Full quote from page 36 in the Franklin AIM manual.

"All Franklin three-phase submersible motors are suitable for full-voltage starting. Under this condition the motor speed goes from zero to full speed within a half second or less. The motor current goes from zero to locked rotor amps, then drops to running amps at full speed. This may dim lights, cause momentary voltage dips to other electrical equipment, and shock power distribution transformers.

In some cases the power companies may require reduced-voltage starters to limit this voltage dip. There are also times when reduced-voltage starters may be desirable to reduce motor starting torque thus reducing the stress on shafts, couplings, and discharge piping. Reduced-voltage starters also slow the rapid acceleration of the water on start-up to help control upthrust and water hammer.

Reduced-voltage starters may not be required if the maximum recommended cable length is used. With maximum recommended cable length there is a 5% voltage drop in the cable at running amps, resulting in about 20% reduction in starting current and about 36% reduction in starting torque compared to having rated voltage at the motor. This may be enough reduction in starting current so that reduced-voltage starters are not required."

Interesting, but does it make sense to install excess wire to obtain the voltage drop required in a single phase installation? Where does one put the excess wire? And this voltage drop doesn't go away, so the pump will operate at lower speed, reduced head, and lower efficiency? Maybe not a significant amount, but I would still question the engineering practice of such an installation.

But the CSV is a good item.