Leaking discharge pipe?

[exm]

Hopefully you are ready for this... So...

I contacted AO Smith and they told me my WH was replaced in 2014 by Al (Lakas) plumbing and heating based in NY. You think I would have known if this WH was replaced less than 2 years ago, right? On top of this, the serial number sticker was *REMOVED* from my WH so I started to puzzle things together:

1. The initial, incorrect "repair" was done in 2012, and I am still trying to figure out the exact name of the company that did that
2. Al's plumbing was in my house in 2013 to unclog the house trap. He seemed like a nice guy, so we had him do some rerouting of our steam heat pipes.
3. During this period, unknowingly to us, he filed a claim with AO Smith regarding our WH, took off the serial, and collected the money
4. My wife and I discovered in 2014 that Al's Plumbing was on the local news identified as unlicensed crooks: plumbinghttp://abclocal.go.com/story?section=news/7_on_your_side&id=9154553
5. AO Smith is looking into our warranty, but chances are they are not honoring any warranty without the serial sticker. Furthermore, after reviewing the pictures they mentioned that the unit's design was changed and voided the warranty. Which is interesting, since this was done by a plumber sent by them.

So at this point:
1. I need to have someone good come in to take a look at the WH. I'm considering Mako's Plumbing (http://www.makoplumbing.com) since they are listed on AO Smith's website and I worked with them before to my satisfaction
2. I probably have to go to the police to go after Al's Plumbing
3. Hopefully AO Smith will at least start honoring the warranty.

What a mess. Moral of the story: be careful who you work with.

 

[stevemachine]

Wow best of luck thanks for the update

 

[Matt30]

That really sucks man. Good luck with the battle, keep us updated

 

[KULTULZ]

Most of them were shocked, they knew they were unlicensed," said Sgt. Edward Grimm, Nassau County Police Department.

It's a crime just to advertise home improvement services without a license in Nassau County.

Moral of the story: be careful who you work with.

You have no choice but to actually ask for license and proof of insurance, and even those may be false.

 

[exm]

An update.... So I had a master plumber come over to take a look and fix the mess. As you can see below, he took apart the incorrectly installed pressure relief valve and installed a new one. He also explained since I have a backflow preventer (for my sprinkler system) in effect I have a closed system, so he recommended the expansion tank on the cold water line.

Finally, the original "guy" (let's not call him a plumber) used two different types of metal (I believe copper and black metal) which caused the inproperly discharge pipe to actually rust...

I'm curious about your thoughts?

 

[stevemachine]

Happy to hear and sounds like the guy knows what hes doing so thats awesome

 

[Matt30]

I never noticed on the first picture, but you are right it looks like he used black iron nipples. That's a big no no for potable water systems.

 

[voletl]

Just wondering but that expansion tank looks like one for a boiler but if a "master plumber" installed it should be right

 

[exm]

Just wondering but that expansion tank looks like one for a boiler but if a "master plumber" installed it should be right

What's the difference out of curiosity?

 

[voletl]

A boiler expansion tank and a water heater expansion tank are both set at different psi with the bladder that's inside them. And also a water heater expansion tank is designed to be used with potable water.

 

[exm]

Just wondering but that expansion tank looks like one for a boiler but if a "master plumber" installed it should be right

The expansion tank is a Amtrol Therm-X-Span (2 gallons, 40psi precharge, 150 PSI max pressure and 200f max temp). I've Googled it and it is labeled as a HW expansion tank.

 

[voletl]

Cool glad everything is correct now

 

[journeyman]

first off who ever installed expansion tank is an idiot. tank needs to be installed on cold inlet with a check valve. also I hope tank is supported being that it is mounted on it side. when it fills with water it will bend at mip and break off. also tank comes precharged at 40psi but needs to be set at whatever house pressure is. code states tank is need on a closed system but bylaw states on any system. code also states t and p drain needs to be of ridged pipe not plastic. code also states drain needs to go outside not to floor. if it can not go outside then another method is required. it is amazing how many people call themselves plumbers and make the rest of us look bad.a piece of advise if you don't know what your doing don't do it

 

[voletl]

The PVC used for the discharge pipe is perfectly fine and is cover under code.

 

[stevemachine]

first off who ever installed expansion tank is an idiot. tank needs to be installed on cold inlet with a check valve. also I hope tank is supported being that it is mounted on it side. when it fills with water it will bend at mip and break off. also tank comes precharged at 40psi but needs to be set at whatever house pressure is. code states tank is need on a closed system but bylaw states on any system. code also states t and p drain needs to be of ridged pipe not plastic. code also states drain needs to go outside not to floor. if it can not go outside then another method is required. it is amazing how many people call themselves plumbers and make the rest of us look bad.a piece of advise if you don't know what your doing don't do it

Agreed. However i know where i am at t&p is fine to go to floor as long as a floor drain is near by and the pipe stubs down 12" or less from the floor. Cant go outside when it gets to -40 occasionally

 

[Matt30]

Relief valves get piped to the floor here as well, but I agree on wanting that expansion tank supported in some way.

 

[KULTULZ]

Wait a minute...

Wasn't CPVC only fairly recently approved (not PVC) for the discharge pipe (rather than metal pipe)?

From- https://www.nachi.org/tpr-valves-discharge-piping.htm

A discharge pipe should:

1. be constructed of an approved material, such as CPVC, copper, polyethylene, galvanized steel, polypropylene, or stainless steel. PVC and other non-approved plastics should not be used since they can easily melt.

7. discharge to a floor drain, to an indirect waste receptor, or to the outdoors.

10. be first piped to an indirect waste receptor such as a bucket through an air gap located in a heated area when discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, since freezing water could block the pipe.

The EXP TANK is on the COLD inlet but should be supported. It looks like it is drooping already.

From- https://www.nachi.org/water-heater-expansion-tanks.htm

InterNACHI inspectors should check that tanks are positioned high enough above the water heater that water will easily drain back down into the water heater tank. It is best positioned near the water heater and may be installed vertically, either above or below the horizontal supply pipe, but can also be positioned horizontally. Horizontally-hung tanks will need additional support to reduce the stress on the copper piping.

I learn something every time a post like this comes on. In this case;

1) I learned why the discharge pipe cannot terminate at or above the WH drip pan, and

2) A bucket can be placed under it if there is no floor drain available.

 

[MPgwinnett]

...friggin moron...

It just dawned on me. The expansion tank install is completely non-functional beyond moving the T&P Valve past a point whereas the temp probe will not actually sense the temp of the water within the WH.

If there is either thermal expansion or supply pressure surges, the tank may absorb them before any possible signal would reach the valve temp probe where relocated.

Where did this guy get his license?

Here is an excerpt from an A.O. Smith Install Manual-



The way I read it , they are stopping short of requiring an expansion tank on new installs. Manufacturer's recommendations usually override local AHJ don'i they?

If your home has a prv (pressure reducing valve), that is considered to be a check valve, therefore code require to have a TET to be installed.

 

[MPgwinnett]

The PVC used for the discharge pipe is perfectly fine and is cover under code.

PVC IS NOT allowed on hot water system, period. Not even allowed for water distribution in the house. CPVC, YES

 

[voletl]

I don't care what code you go by but the code that I am under PVC is approved for the discharge pipe you can go to any supply house or Home Depot or Lowes and pick up a premade discharge pipe made of PVC