Leaking discharge pipe?

[exm]

The situation is dangerous as you do not have a improperly functioning Temperature & Pressure relief valve as now installed. This safety valve is meant to bleed excessive pressure (150PSI) and temperature (210 degrees) from the water heater. It's malfunction could lead to a water heater explosion (GOOGLE).

The expansion tank is needed (on cold side) to absorb pressure fluctuations (as evidenced by the leaking T&P Valve) from either external or internal pressure surges. IMO, a PRV (pressure reducing valve) should also be installed to limit the supply pressure to no more than 60PSI.

What this guy has done is dangerous and needs to be corrected ASAP.

Thanks. I am pretty handy myself, and I looked up some videos regarding replacing the temperature and Pressure relief valve. That's something I can do on my own to mitigate the immediate concerns.

For the other items, I would like to hire a plumber. Can you summarize the items you think I need in your opinion?

Thanks again.

 

[frodo]

as you can see in the image, the probe must go into the tank, if not, it can not get a correct reading on a dead end line.


what is dangerous is the tank could blow with the t&p intack, it is thinking the dead end pipe temp is just rigjht


mean while.....

 

[stevemachine]

Personally dont feel an expansion tank is needed. Where im from pressure is anywhere from 60-100 psi depending on if your in the river valley or not. I have not once installed an expansion tank on the cold side unless there is a backflow device installed on the water supply. That being said it won't hurt to install one just not needed IMO. If water expands and has no where to go it will flow back through the meter and to the city main.

 

[stevemachine]

Sometimes T&P valves are faulty and have premature failure whether it be minerals or just mechanical.

 

[KULTULZ]

Thanks. I am pretty handy myself, and I looked up some videos regarding replacing the temperature and Pressure relief valve. That's something I can do on my own to mitigate the immediate concerns.

For the other items, I would like to hire a plumber. Can you summarize the items you think I need in your opinion?

Thanks again.

The T&P Valve most likely isn't defective, it is the current placement. The plumber, by placing the expansion tank on the T&P drain, moved the valve away from the tank resulting in the temp probe being not submerged in the water in the tank therefore not allowing for a correct reading of the water temperature in the tank.

YOU MUST have a QUALIFIED PLUMBER straighten out this nightmare ASAP! The expansion tank must be removed from the T&P drain and the positioning of the valve (and drain line brought into code compliance) must be restored. It may be a good idea to replace the valve at that time just to cover your butt.

The question of needing an expansion tank and/or a PRV can come later with the proper diagnosis.

 

[KULTULZ]

Personally dont feel an expansion tank is needed. Where im from pressure is anywhere from 60-100 psi depending on if your in the river valley or not. I have not once installed an expansion tank on the cold side unless there is a backflow device installed on the water supply. That being said it won't hurt to install one just not needed IMO. If water expands and has no where to go it will flow back through the meter and to the city main.

If there is no check valve installed in the homes plumbing whether municipal or well.

A spitting T&P Valve indicates either a pressure/temp surge event or possibly a defective/fouled valve.

The OP has established the valve was spitting before this work was done.

 

[KULTULZ]

Finally got a working pressure gauge... The first one was broken (thanks Amazon!).

So the water pressure seems to be 70psi in my house (measured from an outside faucet).

The red hand on the gauge is a tattle-tale hand.

Leave the gauge installed on the laundry sink hose bib and later on the WH drain valve bib for at least twenty-fours hours each to record any incoming pressure surges (no PRV installed) or possible thermal expansion events. The excessive pressure not only trips the T&P Valve but is hard on the rest of the plumbing system.

 

[frodo]

Personally dont feel an expansion tank is needed. Where im from pressure is anywhere from 60-100 psi depending on if your in the river valley or not. I have not once installed an expansion tank on the cold side unless there is a backflow device installed on the water supply. That being said it won't hurt to install one just not needed IMO. If water expands and has no where to go it will flow back through the meter and to the city main.

I agree, expansion tanks are the new "IN" thing and are not needed 95% of the time

 

[KULTULZ]

I agree, expansion tanks are the new "IN" thing and are not needed 95% of the time

But aren't they required by code on new WH installs?

 

[KULTULZ]

...friggin moron...

It just dawned on me. The expansion tank install is completely non-functional beyond moving the T&P Valve past a point whereas the temp probe will not actually sense the temp of the water within the WH.

If there is either thermal expansion or supply pressure surges, the tank may absorb them before any possible signal would reach the valve temp probe where relocated.

Where did this guy get his license?

Here is an excerpt from an A.O. Smith Install Manual-

THERMAL EXPANSION-

Water supply systems may, because of such events as high line pressure, frequent cut-offs, the effects of water hammer among others, have installed devices such as pressure reducing valves, check valves, back flow preventers, etc. to control these types of problems. When these devices are not equipped with an internal by-pass, and no other measures are taken, the devices cause the water system to be closed. As water is heated, it expands (thermal expansion) and closed systems do not allow for the expansion of heated water. The water within the water heater tank expands as it is heated and increases the pressure of the water system. If the relieving point of the water heater's temperature-pressure relief valve is reached, the valve will relieve the excess pressure. The temperature-pressure relief valve is not intended for the constant relief of thermal expansion. This is an unacceptable condition and must be corrected. It is recommended that any devices installed which could create a closed system have a by-pass and/or the system have an expansion tank or device to relieve the pressure built by thermal expansion in the water system. Expansion tanks are available for ordering through a local plumbing contractor. Contact the local water heater supplier or service agency for assistance in controlling these situations

The way I read it , they are stopping short of requiring an expansion tank on new installs. Manufacturer's recommendations usually override local AHJ don'i they?

 

[exm]

Thanks again for all your help. Much appreciated.

Isn't the solution as simple as removing the discharge line with the expansion tank, replace the T&P Valve and add a new discharge line (minus the tank)?

I'm planning to document everything, and contact AO Smith when I have my facts straight. Hopefully they will fix this under warranty using a different plumber

 

[exm]

By the way... Found a service sticker on the heater. These are the guys that performed this installation:
http://www.reliableheatsny.com

 

[stevemachine]

...friggin moron...

It just dawned on me. The expansion tank install is completely non-functional beyond moving the T&P Valve past a point whereas the temp probe will not actually sense the temp of the water within the WH.

If there is either thermal expansion or supply pressure surges, the tank may absorb them before any possible signal would reach the valve temp probe where relocated.

Where did this guy get his license?

Here is an excerpt from an A.O. Smith Install Manual-



The way I read it , they are stopping short of requiring an expansion tank on new installs. Manufacturer's recommendations usually override local AHJ don'i they?

What im getting from it is if its a closed system such as an rp or double check valve on the water supply then you need an expansion tank otherwise you don't need one if its an open system ie just a water meter on domestic supply

 

[KULTULZ]

What im getting from it is if its a closed system such as an rp or double check valve on the water supply then you need an expansion tank otherwise you don't need one if its an open system ie just a water meter on domestic supply

That is how I read it also.

But with new codes coming in all the time, the municipal supplier may change the meter that includes a backflow device and the average homeowner would not know or understand.

You also have to take into consideration supply pressure surges such as late at night there not being a large demand for water and line pressure increases just for an example I would think.

Aren't most faucets, etc., rated for just 80# of pressure?

(On a learning curve here... )

 

[KULTULZ]

Thanks again for all your help. Much appreciated.

Isn't the solution as simple as removing the discharge line with the expansion tank, replace the T&P Valve and add a new discharge line (minus the tank)?

I'm planning to document everything, and contact AO Smith when I have my facts straight. Hopefully they will fix this under warranty using a different plumber

Yes (IMO as I am not a licensed professional), removing the added plumbing (incl tank) and restoring the T&P circuit to code. You would then determine (after usage) if an expansion tank and/or a PRV is needed on your system.

By the way... Found a service sticker on the heater. These are the guys that performed this installation:
http://www.reliableheatsny.com

It makes you wonder as they seen to be a reputable company, is the boss aware of this kind of work?

 

[stevemachine]

That is how I read it also.

But with new codes coming in all the time, the municipal supplier may change the meter that includes a backflow device and the average homeowner would not know or understand.

You also have to take into consideration supply pressure surges such as late at night there not being a large demand for water and line pressure increases just for an example I would think.

Aren't most faucets, etc., rated for just 80# of pressure?

(On a learning curve here... )

Where i live they dont have meters that include backflow devices, but if thats a possibility then fair point. I would hope of the meter is swapper and included a backflow device then the home owner made aware. Yes most fixtures are rated for 80 to 90 psi. I believe my code states 90 psi is max for fixtures.

 

[KULTULZ]

I would hope of the meter is swapper and included a backflow device then the home owner made aware.

I would imagine (hope) the supplier would include notification inside the billing but who knows?

Even then, most would not understand it. I only briefly understand it as I have been reading here recently and learning.

Then if the homeowner has a problem and hires a plumber, will he do a repair as this one? How is the average homeowner to know?

It is like going in for minor surgery and you wake up with your left testicle missing...

 

[exm]

I would like to express my gratitude to anyone replying. Yes, I am an "average" home owner (although I consider myself handy). Unfortunately unlike posters on this forum, not all "professionals" will do the right thing. That's why forums like this are invaluable.

At this point, I reached out to the installing plumber and AO Smith pointing both of them to this thread to comment. Hopefully they'll respond in public, or at least to me in private.

 

[stevemachine]

I would imagine (hope) the supplier would include notification inside the billing but who knows?

Even then, most would not understand it. I only briefly understand it as I have been reading here recently and learning.

Then if the homeowner has a problem and hires a plumber, will he do a repair as this one? How is the average homeowner to know?

It is like going in for minor surgery and you wake up with your left testicle missing...

Yes very true indeed one can only hope. Not everyone does their due diligence.

 

[stevemachine]

I would like to express my gratitude to anyone replying. Yes, I am an "average" home owner (although I consider myself handy). Unfortunately unlike posters on this forum, not all "professionals" will do the right thing. That's why forums like this are invaluable.

At this point, I reached out to the installing plumber and AO Smith pointing both of them to this thread to comment. Hopefully they'll respond in public, or at least to me in private.

Really hope everything gets resolved and they remedy the issue immediately. Very welcome for the help thats what we're here for