Water Shut-off with Bell Escutcheon

Discussion in 'General Plumbing Help' started by billyjk, Jan 14, 2018.

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  1. Jan 14, 2018 #1

    billyjk

    billyjk

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    I am working under a pedestal sink with 1/2" CPVC lines coming from the wall that are currently hidden under bell escutcheons that come right up to the existing water shut-off valves. The valves are corroded and need to be replaced, and I need to install new bell escutcheons behind the valves.

    But, since the escutcheons fill the space between the wall and the valve, and I need to cut off the valve in the tiny space currently between the valve and escutcheon, my question is about plumbers typically handle this situation.

    I have 1/2" couplings, and I figured that once the old valve and escutcheon is off, I'll need to cut a ways back toward the wall and use the coupling to bring new pipe out beyond the new escutcheon to connect with the new valve.

    Questions:
    - With a coupling now taking up the space under the new escutcheon, if I needed to replace the valve in the future, am I screwed? It appears that I'd have to cut way back at the wall.

    - When I go to glue on the new valve, how do I hold the CPVC behind the valve to make sure I get full insertion, if the CPVC is fully under the bell escutcheon?

    Thanks for any help you can provide.
    - bk
     
  2. Jan 14, 2018 #2

    Mr_David

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    Picture?? are the valves CPVC?
    The original installer had to of installed the escutcheons before the valve.
    are the valves glued on or screwed on?
     
  3. Jan 14, 2018 #3

    billyjk

    billyjk

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    Thanks Mr. David!

    The new valves are CPVC glued connection. The existing valves (show below) appear to also use a CPVC glued connection, as the CPVC runs right into the back of the valve.
    Definitely, the original installer put the bell escutcheons on before the valve.

    Pix below...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  4. Jan 14, 2018 #4

    billyjk

    billyjk

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    You can see that I can get a saw in that space behind the valve to cut the CPVC. I then figure I'd need to precisely measure how much additional CPVC to cut (probably near the wall) that will allow me to push on a coupling, and then push on a new, small length to extend out to where the valve will connect beyond the new bell escutcheon.

    To my mind, this approach sort of makes it so that the next time those valves need to be replaced, there will be very little pipe under that escutcheon to work with, as the coupling will be sitting under there. Unless there's a smarter way to do this.

    Second question had to do with how I might hold the CPVC pipe behind the valve, but before the new escutcheon, when I glue that joint. Maybe all I need to do is push back on the unsupported CPVC supply? Not sure.

    I really appreciate the help!
     
  5. Jan 14, 2018 #5

    billyjk

    billyjk

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    Need to move forward with this repair, so I made some executive decisions. :)

    First, I am just going with flat escutcheons which does away with the issue of engineering the pipe length to an exact value to look proper with a bell escutcheon, which then forces the use of a coupling under that escutcheon, possibly making it more difficult the next time this repair has to be done.

    I am also going to use a PVC p-trap (I planned on using a brass/chrome one) as my well water has completely destroyed the brass/chrome that was originally on there.
     
  6. Jan 15, 2018 #6

    Mr_David

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    Valves look like compression. Measure outside diameter of pvc.
    Could be copper tube size pvc like gold guard. If it is 5/8” o.d. You can probably remove valve with to adjustable wrenches. Back nut/hex turn clockwise while holding valve body with second wrench
     
  7. Jan 16, 2018 #7

    billyjk

    billyjk

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    Hey Mr. David,

    I thought I was going forward today with this job, but I am waiting on a new faucet, which may take days. So I did not get to this job today. Thought I would check back here for replies.

    Good thing!

    Although I've replaced a bunch of water valves in my house, I always presumed that since it's CPVC, I need to use a replacement valve with a glued CPVC female connection. I had no idea that you can use a compression connection with CPVC, as I didn't think it would work. Plus, all of the compression stop valves I've seen at Lowes/Home Depot are for copper or PEX.

    The CPVC supply is 5/8" O.D. as you suspected. And, it does looks like if I put two wrenches on that valve, it would back off, just as you suggested. But I can't turn the water off right now to check. See pix below.

    So, if these are compression valves, I can avoid my entire original problem of cutting the supply back and using couplings. But...

    - Where can I buy CPVC compression valves?
    - Can you repeatedly use the same end on a CPVC supply line for compression connections without losing the integrity/strength of the CPVC?

    Thanks for hanging in there with me on this job!
    -bk

    **Edit**
    Just read that SharkBite water stops are removable. I know these can be used on CPVC and I just read that they are removable. But, I don't know how reliable/safe they are, and I am not sure how removable they will be after years of well water. And advice here is welcomed!
    -bk

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  8. Jan 16, 2018 #8

    Mr_David

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    i don't work with cpvc here. I hve run across the coppertube type on vary rare occasion. I guessing you tke the old off you will find a brass ferrul/olive on the pipe. Same s you would on copper
     
  9. Jan 17, 2018 #9

    billyjk

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    I've read that some folks use a plastic ferrule on CPVC.

    What about SharkBite fittings?
     
  10. Jan 17, 2018 #10

    havasu

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    I would not use a sharkbite fitting. Just use the appropriate compression insert which will prevent the PEX from collapsing during the compression.
     
  11. Jan 18, 2018 #11

    breplum

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    I haven't worked with CPVC myself but there are a few things to note.
    1. You do have compression valves, so all you need is a pair of new 5/8"x3/8" quarter turn compression angle stops.
    2. Your corrosion may just be deposits, and you can clean off the existing compression nut with steel wool and add the valve body to the existing nut and compression ferrule.
    3. On copper, we sometimes use a ferrule removal tool especially made to remove the nut and ferrule. I have never tried it on plastic...
    4. Worst case; cut the pipe at the nut, use shallow/flat escutcheons and use the whole new angle stop.
    NICE photo by the way.
     
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  12. Jan 19, 2018 #12

    billyjk

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    breplum,
    Thanks for your help!

    Yes, they are compression, thanks for that confirmation. The existing nuts are mega-corroded. Not sure how I feel about re-using them and the previously used ferrule. Seems like it might be risky. Interestingly, I talked with the plumbing company that plumbed my entire house when we built it 18 years ago, and he also confirmed that they used compression fittings on CPVC. He also suggested to use the old nut as you did.

    At the moment, I am leaning toward just cutting the CPVC and going with a glued connection. I've had great luck with that. If I use a flat escutcheon, there will still be room for another cut and reinstall at some point in the future.

    Since I am on well water, I am not convinced that SharkBite connectors are the best way to go. Once they get corroded, they may not be easy to remove either.
     
  13. Jan 19, 2018 #13

    Mr_David

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    I can't believe a "plumber" told you to reuse the existing nut and ferrule.
    The nuts are not always a true fit to the new valve.
    Most cases they might work, but I followed behind a handyman that did just that.
    Had a compression nut, not just leak, but the entire valve blew off.

    here is a YouTube video I recently found.
    Relates to various fittings and how they hold when pipe is frozen.
    Not the same topic but some interesting results that you can apply here.

    https://youtu.be/OOeBJ8mDr8Q
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  14. Jan 19, 2018 #14

    breplum

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    We have been involved with replacing angle stops on single and mulit-unit buildings piped with copper. So far, 200+ angle stops and 30 +years and haven't had any call-backs or issues (yes, many of my customers are regulars from our 40 years in business). In all of that, I don't think we have pulled more than 25 ferrules first. Just my experience.
    A properly tightened compression angle stop will not blow off. That is downright poor trade-craft. (Frozen pipes not part of discussion). :)
     
  15. Jan 19, 2018 #15

    Mr_David

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    I would think that a company that charged $200 / hour would take the time to replace a nut & ferrule that was part of the new valve I was paying for.

    200+ valves in 30 yrs? That's almost 7/yr. I 'll take that as a typo error.
    Sorry for bustin' your chops, but leaving old nuts and ferrules is something a DIYer would do.

    The video I linked was not so much about freezing water but on how well some fittings held when submitted to extreme pressure. Most interesting to me was the sharkbytes on plastic vs copper.

    The stop valves I experienced blowing off had a slight mismatch in size between the old nut and new valve.

    Do you know what an ameriflex stop valve is?
     
  16. Jan 21, 2018 #16

    TomFOhio

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    In order for Billy to replace the whole comp valve including the 5/8 nut and ferrule he will have to go into the wall and cut the 1/2 cpvc pipe and put a coupling in the wall and then extend the pipe out past the wall enough to put a new escusion on and then the new valve. Put a little pipe dope on the valve threads for a better seal. Give yourself some room and extend the pipe out a ways.
     

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