It's been said that the quality of plumbing fixtures of the same manufacturer and model vary if purchased from a big box store or a reputable plumbing supply house. Does the same hold true for toilets manufacturers like Toto, Kohler, etc?
Toilets from a plumbing supply house or from a big box store or Amazon
- Thread starter BlueSkyHigh
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Got a response from Toto USA when asking about one of their products on Amazon and I quote ""Hello, This model sold on Amazon is the same model sold in any plumbing supply store or kitchen and bath showroom. TOTO manufactures the same level of quality across all sales channels. We hope that you will give it a try and we thank you for your interest in TOTO!"
I kinda believe it, but then again, lies occur daily
Bird Doo Head
Well-Known Member
I hope this may help you:
Some years ago, at the plumbing wholesaler where I used to purchase hydronic & steam items, the owner said they would get this question asked often. They did an experiment by taking apart, or sectional cutting &/or measuring several brands from several manufacturers of toilets, sinks, water heaters and faucets. They got way into it. Even customers were bringing in samples. The conference room looked like a trade show for plumbing autopsies.
I can't remember all the results, but the owner told me samples of Kohler, Toto & Gerber were the same whether at big box or wholesaler.
Central Brass, Pioneer & Olympia were the same big box or supply house. (Same company)
I think I remember that AO Smith rep told me they often sell two versions of the same unit, but they were named differently & had different controls whether at supplier or big box. I don't remember what the cut-and-gut experiment person told me.
Atlas has changed hands, so that was void. Grohe and Hans Grohe were not tested.
American Standard was the worst offender:
He said American Standard brand had remarkable differences between same model toilet & sinks at big box or wholesaler.
My own experience was that I bought two American Standard toilets from a big box. They didn't have good glazing; such as the underside of the wash rim was not glazed (a mold grabber). The bottoms of each were wavy so they would not sit flat to the floor. I returned them & bought at the wholesaler. Perfect glazing, different flush valve, metal flush arm and handle, flat bottom. Same model and lower price.
I bought a lav sink. The flat where the tailpiece washer fits against was oval and wavy. Back it went.
Coincidence? Beats me.
The wholesaler where these were purchased wasn't the testing place, but the counterman told me the same thing- big box can be different.
Our Americast sink from a big box is a total disaster. Coating coming off, not-flat rim, etc. Even the holes were mis-drilled so the cold faucet handle crashes into the sprayer. That's what I get for being too lazy to go to the wholesaler. And, trying to get warranty parts for American Standard is a nightmare. Receipt or not, it's always a fight. (Our kitchen faucet needs parts often.)
Oddly, I once bought a Glacier Bay house brand cheapie faucet for temporary use. After a few "temporary" years, the chrome started coming off the areator. Expecting failure, I wondered if they'd warranty and send me a new areator. One a 3 minute phone call & I had a whole new (free) faucet on the way. Who'd a thunk it?
So, I'd have to conclude that differences vary by brand and maybe even by which big box or hardware chain. And, maybe (hopefully) since Lixil bought American Standard, things have improved. (Lixil makes high end faucets for the Japan market and they now own Grohe. Maybe they will bring American Standard back up to a being good brand.)
Something else to consider it that sometimes items get returned as defective to big box, but go right back on the shelf. The store may not have been told it's bad, or the return person did not care. I've purchased items with notes inside from the first purchaser saying it's defective.
Recently I returned a defective impact driver & told the return clerk was defective. I put a mark on the box & a note inside. I went to the tool aisle to buy another and my bad one was already back on the shelf.
(A not related, but humorous event: Once in a restaurant, I bit a dinner roll. Stuffed inside, from the bottom, was a rolled up note saying "I left this on my plate.". Yuck!)
Some years ago, at the plumbing wholesaler where I used to purchase hydronic & steam items, the owner said they would get this question asked often. They did an experiment by taking apart, or sectional cutting &/or measuring several brands from several manufacturers of toilets, sinks, water heaters and faucets. They got way into it. Even customers were bringing in samples. The conference room looked like a trade show for plumbing autopsies.
I can't remember all the results, but the owner told me samples of Kohler, Toto & Gerber were the same whether at big box or wholesaler.
Central Brass, Pioneer & Olympia were the same big box or supply house. (Same company)
I think I remember that AO Smith rep told me they often sell two versions of the same unit, but they were named differently & had different controls whether at supplier or big box. I don't remember what the cut-and-gut experiment person told me.
Atlas has changed hands, so that was void. Grohe and Hans Grohe were not tested.
American Standard was the worst offender:
He said American Standard brand had remarkable differences between same model toilet & sinks at big box or wholesaler.
My own experience was that I bought two American Standard toilets from a big box. They didn't have good glazing; such as the underside of the wash rim was not glazed (a mold grabber). The bottoms of each were wavy so they would not sit flat to the floor. I returned them & bought at the wholesaler. Perfect glazing, different flush valve, metal flush arm and handle, flat bottom. Same model and lower price.
I bought a lav sink. The flat where the tailpiece washer fits against was oval and wavy. Back it went.
Coincidence? Beats me.
The wholesaler where these were purchased wasn't the testing place, but the counterman told me the same thing- big box can be different.
Our Americast sink from a big box is a total disaster. Coating coming off, not-flat rim, etc. Even the holes were mis-drilled so the cold faucet handle crashes into the sprayer. That's what I get for being too lazy to go to the wholesaler. And, trying to get warranty parts for American Standard is a nightmare. Receipt or not, it's always a fight. (Our kitchen faucet needs parts often.)
Oddly, I once bought a Glacier Bay house brand cheapie faucet for temporary use. After a few "temporary" years, the chrome started coming off the areator. Expecting failure, I wondered if they'd warranty and send me a new areator. One a 3 minute phone call & I had a whole new (free) faucet on the way. Who'd a thunk it?
So, I'd have to conclude that differences vary by brand and maybe even by which big box or hardware chain. And, maybe (hopefully) since Lixil bought American Standard, things have improved. (Lixil makes high end faucets for the Japan market and they now own Grohe. Maybe they will bring American Standard back up to a being good brand.)
Something else to consider it that sometimes items get returned as defective to big box, but go right back on the shelf. The store may not have been told it's bad, or the return person did not care. I've purchased items with notes inside from the first purchaser saying it's defective.
Recently I returned a defective impact driver & told the return clerk was defective. I put a mark on the box & a note inside. I went to the tool aisle to buy another and my bad one was already back on the shelf.
(A not related, but humorous event: Once in a restaurant, I bit a dinner roll. Stuffed inside, from the bottom, was a rolled up note saying "I left this on my plate.". Yuck!)
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Bird Doo, thanks for that exhaustive treatise and explanation. It helps much!
They’re all crap, some just crapier than others
The best toilets are either a Nebraska out house or a hole-in-the-ground like the Russians use.
Well I know when techs would purchase Rheem from home depot on weekends they had to go back within a few weeks to repair it.
If you look at the size of supply lines on faucets they are thinner.
Shower diverters don't have integral stops.
Battery and corded tools have more plastic integral parts.
Moen told our plumbing supply house general manager the same thing toto said about their products but from big box stores being they are the same. But you can clearly see there is a difference.
I could go through a lot of other examples I have found as I'm sure others will too, including their packaging.
So as far as Amazon, who knows what garbage they may get. I only trust going to a direct distributor. At least I know I am getting true first line product directly from manufacturer.
If you look at the size of supply lines on faucets they are thinner.
Shower diverters don't have integral stops.
Battery and corded tools have more plastic integral parts.
Moen told our plumbing supply house general manager the same thing toto said about their products but from big box stores being they are the same. But you can clearly see there is a difference.
I could go through a lot of other examples I have found as I'm sure others will too, including their packaging.
So as far as Amazon, who knows what garbage they may get. I only trust going to a direct distributor. At least I know I am getting true first line product directly from manufacturer.
More people want cheap so the manufacturers are putting on the shelves what people want to buy, cheap products.
American Standard makes the best box store toilet, just get one with a flapper. Two piece.
If you’re worried it won’t sit flat just take it out of the box in the store and check it.
American Standard makes the best box store toilet, just get one with a flapper. Two piece.
If you’re worried it won’t sit flat just take it out of the box in the store and check it.
I agree with the American standard. But several years ago they did have trouble with leaking at the tank to bowl connection. We had 3-4 toilets that had the same problem. I knew a contractor who had the same issue as well. And replacing the tank to bowl did not help at all. It would seem fine but then next morning there would be a small puddle on the floor.
Now they do not have problems. Well at least for now. Lol
I once called Kohler USA for parts pursuant to their warrantee. They had me check the tag on the supply tubes and they told me that my model was only sold at Lowes and Home depot, even though it had the same model name (Forte). The difference I noticed was that instead of having a machined fit with O rings where the spout pivots, it have a loose fit with a plastic hose inside the spout, which is a cheaper way to go, and incidentally, the way they mostly are now.
Are the major brands being made here in the US or overseas or north and south of the border?
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Bird Doo Head
Well-Known Member
From BlueSkyHigh: Are the major brands being made here in the US or overseas or north and south of the border?
I saw some American Standard faucets at a Big Box marked Made In China and some Made in Mexico. Wholesale House version, I don't know where. I think Eljer and Crane are also part of American Standard- owned by Lixil.
Lixil also owns Grohe, which is made in Germany, Mexico or Portugal. (A recent Grohe purchase had rough in box made in Germany and valve & trim made in Mexico.)
Hans Grohe is made in Germany, last I knew.
It was not too many years ago that I had a project at a Kohler facility in Wisconsin that made cast iron bathtubs. (Interesting place). I have a Kohler faucet that was made in USA. Are all Kohler made in US? Don't know.
A Moen rep told me their faucets come from one of 82 factories worldwide. Moen is owned by Fortune Brands, an owner of many brand names. I wonder if their fixtures are like Glacier Bay- factory is lowest bidder of the week?
I think Mansfield & Toto are still USA made. (Might be old information)
Central Brass, Pioneer and Olympia are mostly Asian made, with some USA made- Per recent conversation with Pioneer.
Atlas is crap-shoot factory.
I wonder if Briggs toilets are still USA made & still good stuff?
Chicago Faucet = ?
Take what is above with a grain of salt. The information mostly came from reps and the companies. It could be "creative" answering by them.
Paul
I saw some American Standard faucets at a Big Box marked Made In China and some Made in Mexico. Wholesale House version, I don't know where. I think Eljer and Crane are also part of American Standard- owned by Lixil.
Lixil also owns Grohe, which is made in Germany, Mexico or Portugal. (A recent Grohe purchase had rough in box made in Germany and valve & trim made in Mexico.)
Hans Grohe is made in Germany, last I knew.
It was not too many years ago that I had a project at a Kohler facility in Wisconsin that made cast iron bathtubs. (Interesting place). I have a Kohler faucet that was made in USA. Are all Kohler made in US? Don't know.
A Moen rep told me their faucets come from one of 82 factories worldwide. Moen is owned by Fortune Brands, an owner of many brand names. I wonder if their fixtures are like Glacier Bay- factory is lowest bidder of the week?
I think Mansfield & Toto are still USA made. (Might be old information)
Central Brass, Pioneer and Olympia are mostly Asian made, with some USA made- Per recent conversation with Pioneer.
Atlas is crap-shoot factory.
I wonder if Briggs toilets are still USA made & still good stuff?
Chicago Faucet = ?
Take what is above with a grain of salt. The information mostly came from reps and the companies. It could be "creative" answering by them.
Paul
Scrat
Member
My question is, where are all the 2 hole toilets? You know, the ones that have a hole near the front bottom of bowl to help flush? I really like ours but its like mentioned aboe, the glaze is non existant under the rim and looks like crap after a few days.. Sadly most toilets are being made like Frankenstien now with 1 part from every country in the mix. You can buy anything stamped MADE IN USA but if you look at individual parts...made in china, made in mexico, made in Area 51.
I bought an American flag made in china once.
As did I. It faded in less than three months AND my stainless steel products made in China have rusted to a beautiful patina.
