Toilet leak

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havasu said:
Looking down, you should have the bolt head, then metal washer, then rubber washer, then the base of the tank, followed by rubber washer on the outside, followed by the metal washer, then the nut
Hand tighten, then snug back and forth making the bubble in the level is plumb. Snug, but not too tight, or you'll bust the porcelain.
Click to expand...
Wow!
What you said makes sense, but it's not what was given to me in the newly bought kit, nor what was installed initially when
the house was built.

In both the kit and the initial installation I had the long bolt, one rubber washer, one metal washer and one nut.
That's all !
It makes sense to have a rubber washer and metal washer on the inside AND outside of the tank.
I just wonder why they didn't supply that even in the new kit.

I'm going back to the hardware store tomorrow and make sure I get all the parts.

Thanks again.
 
Tank to bowl bolts should be installed with one rubber washer under the bolt head. No metal washer inside the tank at all, that will cause a leak.

Very important.
 
Twowaxhack said:
Tank to bowl bolts should be installed with one rubber washer under the bolt head. No metal washer inside the tank at all, that will cause a leak.

Very important.
Click to expand...
OK thanks, got it.
That's the way it was and worked for 20+ years.
I'll just put a rubber + metal outside the tank.

It seems that the exact tightness is very important.
Too loose and you've got a leak.
Too tight and you could do some damage.
 
Put a metal washer then a nut on the outside of the tank. Center the bolt in the hole of the tank and snug it down. If it’s too tight the bolt head can cut through the rubber washer or you can crack the tank, too loose and it’ll also leak.

Then under the bowl, put a rubber, metal and then the nut in that order. Tighten each side a little at a time and pull the tank down even.
 
PlumbMark said:
Yes I was referring to the tank to bowl bolts.
I may have messed up. Should I put rubber washer at top followed by metal washer below it (touching)?
I put rubber washer at top, inside tank and metal washer outside the tank where the nut is.
Is that right or wrong?
Click to expand...
Let me be sure you understand what havasu said above, as your description seems to describe something different. There should not be any metal touching ANY porcelain. Not the bowl or the tank.

Starting from inside the tank, the order of items are screw head, rubber washer, tank, bowl, rubber washer, flat metal washer, nut.

The area inside the tank that makes contact with the rubber washer is the water sealing area. Make sure it is smooth and flat without any residual pieces of the old rubber washer. Check for cracks in this area if it is still leaking.

The bottom rubber washer that contacts the bowl is just to protect the porcelain bowl and doesn't "seal" anything. And just as havasu said about these bolts, "Hand tighten, then snug back and forth making the bubble in the level is plumb. Snug, but not too tight, or you'll bust the porcelain."
 
Some kits give you a nut and metal washer to go outside the tank and it holds the bolt tight to the tank before you install the tank onto the bowl.

In this case you’d have a rubber washer under the bolt head.

Then you slide the bolt through the tank.

Then you install a metal washer and nut then tighten it down snug to the tank.

Then you install the tank onto the bowl and install a rubber washer, metal washer and nut in that order under the bowl.

Snug it all down evenly. You want just a little movement.
 
Twowaxhack said:
Put a metal washer then a nut on the outside of the tank. Center the bolt in the hole of the tank and snug it down. If it’s too tight the bolt head can cut through the rubber washer or you can crack the tank, too loose and it’ll also leak.

Then under the bowl, put a rubber, metal and then the nut in that order. Tighten each side a little at a time and pull the tank down even.
Click to expand...
Having a couple of torque wrenches, calibrated to be dead-on-balls accurate, that never get any use, are there any specs that can be cited that would get a person in the ballpark of correctness or is it an educated guess that's needed?
 
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BlueSkyHigh said:
Having a couple of torque wrenches, calibrated to be dead-on-balls accurate, that never get any use. Are there any specs that can be cited that would get a person in the ballpark of correctness or is it an educated guess that's needed?
Click to expand...
It's a feel thing.

I guess one could use a torque wrench, but we are assembling a toilet, not building an engine.
 
Althogh this is a different type of nut/bolt type, it talks about how snug the bolts should be. It starts at about the 1:30 mark. With a typical bolt and nut, I don't think you will even get two full turns before being "snug" enough.

 
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Occasionally I’ll read some directions and it’ll recommend or give torque specs.

Kohler is one company that does it.

I’ll do some tests when it warms back up. I have torque wrenches and old toilets to play with.

The problem with a toilet is that it can and will crack later if it’s over tightened. Temp variations of the air and water also play into it.

I just run the nut down fingertight then snug it up.

Not all toilets are built equally, some are way thicker.
 
I've learned in my old age that tighter is not necessarily better. Ptrap is one I always tightened. Seem to always leak. Now, I just snug it up, and I quit having leaks.
 
I don't know what to say at this point.
I take one step forward and two steps back. :(

Plumbing seems to be a black art.

When I was at the hardware store yesterday I was looking for bolts/nuts/washers that matched what I had
previously.
The kit I bought (gasket, nuts/bolts/washers) had bolts that were fatter than the originals, as
I mentioned above.
I figured there wasn't a snug fit between washer and tank as the originals had.

Then it dawned on me. Why look for these skinny bolts (no one had them)?
Why not just use the old bolts/nuts and just buy new washers?

I couldn't find any washers the same as the old ones. I bought some that had the same center diameter
but had a larger outside diameter and were also thinner. I stacked two together and put it
on the right bolt (the problem one).
I also put one below the tank before the metal washer.

But when I loaded with water there was still a leak.
So I said to myself, if it was OK for 20+ years without a rubber washer under the tank
why put one on now?
I took it off, tightened it up, and the leak stopped.

BUT....
Now for the two steps back.

Remember that intake line that I replaced with a flexible stainless line?
It's leaking now. :(

I had tightened it up by hand. There was a tiny leak.
Today I tightened it some more by hand. It's designed to click
when it's tightened properly. I waited until I heard the click
and stopped.
Came back an hour or so later and it's leaking more than before!!!
 
A possible complicating factor...
I use an old ballcock system. I like it because it works and is quiet.

When everything was set up, the ballcock arm was rubbing against the vertical column.
I don't know the proper way to adjust that. So I twisted the part the arm attaches to a bit
(several times).
This may have disturbed the stainless line connections.
 
I never used that type before so I'm unsure the problems they may have. Did you take it back off and make sure the rubber washer is still inside the supply hose?
 
BlueSkyHigh said:
Having a couple of torque wrenches, calibrated to be dead-on-balls accurate, that never get any use, are there any specs that can be cited that would get a person in the ballpark of correctness or is it an educated guess that's needed?
Click to expand...
With a near perfect torque there is +/-27% variability in a value of clamping force in a bolt joint, so you know. Biggest unknown is a thread friction.
 
dmmsr said:
I never used that type before so I'm unsure the problems they may have. Did you take it back off and make sure the rubber washer is still inside the supply hose?
Click to expand...

I didn't get that far today.

But I think I FINALLY have solved all the problems! :)

I started today by draining the water and working on the problem stainless line.
I was going to loosen the part at the top that clicks. I kept turning it counter-clockwise
and it kept clicking which was very annoying! It didn't want to come loose.
So I left it alone.

Then I concentrated on the part above it, that screws into onto the vertical column that goes into the tank.
I tightened it, but before I did, I moved the ballcock into what I thought was the correct position.
A position where the ball cleared both the vertical column and the tank's side.

After I tightened that nut I tried it out. Opened the water and flushed.
After the water drained I noticed that ballcock arm had moved all the way over again,
and was now actually on top of the vertical column!

It seems that's where it wants to be all the time!

I had the same ballcock in my main toilet but have since changed it for a newer system.
But I used to position the ballcock in that same tight space. The space where it just clears the
vertical column and just misses touching the side of the tank. Maybe 1/4" max. clearance each side.

Well today I think I learned where it wants to be and how it functions.
It stays in the same position, above the vertical column.
When the tank is flushed, the arm simply rests on the flat part of the vertical column and waits.

Then when around 80-90% of the water has filled up, the water begins to touch the ballcock and it
starts to rise. Soon after the water reaches the water line and the ballcock senses the correct position and
the water stops filling.

I've tried flushing now 2-3 times and have checked for leaks. Nothing yet after 1-2 hours. :)
 
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