Toilet Drain to Shower Drain

[Shadowdoc]

I live in a 200 year old church and I wanted to add a shower downstairs which is half grade below street level.

Currently the bathroom has two toilets. In a nutshell, I was wondering if there’s any way of converting one of the toilet drains into a shower drain without having to break through the concrete flooring/slab.

I was thinking about some sort of an adapter or utilizing a low profile P-trap similar to the ones used in a standalone tub.

I was hoping not to either have to break through the concrete, or in some way raise the shower on a platform.

Thank you so much in advance.

 

[MicEd69]

As the piping obviously isn't 200 years old, you need to pull the toilet you want to convert and see what the piping looks like. We'll need to see pictures of that to provide additional help.

But the short answer is yes, it is possible to connect a 2" shower drain to a toilet riser and raise the base of the shower to install a P-trap. The shower P-trap will need a vent. It may be possible to route one to your vent stack, or an AAV could be used if they are approved by your local jurisdiction.

How to connect the 2" drain to the toilet riser will depend on what it looks like. You may need to break some of the concrete around the toilet riser to make that connection, but that will be relatively minor compared to breaking out the entire line for the shower. And that will not be known until you see what is under the toilet.

Determining how to connect to the vent stack will require some pictures and/or sketches of the existing drain lines and vents. If there is a sink nearby, you may be able to use that vent for the shower.

 

[Shadowdoc]

Thank you so much for your detail response. I really do appreciate it.

Attached are the pictures of what it is that I’m dealing with.

This is the bathroom in question. As far as vents are concerned, I’m assuming they are connected to the bathroom that is directly above this bathroom.

 

[MicEd69]

Well, it appears that you have lead pipe sewer lines. That presents a problem and complicates the connection.

I'll request suggestions from some plumbers experienced with this old lead plumbing sewer lines.

 

[dmmsr]

You need to break the floor up and dig down and follow the line until it converts to cast iron. Cut out the lead bend and fernco to pvc. In the second pic it looks like the toilet riser drops into a tee and just the riser is lead but cannot tell 100 percent. I have never seen just the riser as a lead pipe but could be. Would you be able to confirm if at the bottom is cast iron or not?

 

[Shadowdoc]

You need to break the floor up and dig down and follow the line until it converts to cast iron. Cut out the lead bend and fernco to pvc. In the second pic it looks like the toilet riser drops into a tee and just the riser is lead but cannot tell 100 percent. I have never seen just the riser as a lead pipe but could be. Would you be able to confirm if at the bottom is cast iron or not?

You need to break the floor up and dig down and follow the line until it converts to cast iron. Cut out the lead bend and fernco to pvc. In the second pic it looks like the toilet riser drops into a tee and just the riser is lead but cannot tell 100 percent. I have never seen just the riser as a lead pipe but could be. Would you be able to confirm if at the bottom is cast iron or not?

It looks as if just the riser is lead. (Video attached). It does ‘T’ off to the other toilet next to it and assuming the one directly upstairs.

So digging down to remove the riser is my only option to convert it to a shower drain? Eh.

Thanks for all your help!
View attachment IMG_4214.MOV

 

[MicEd69]

Are you doing this yourself without a permit? Just wondering as there may be other ways that this can be done, though not strictly per code.

Can you get a good dimension of the lead pipe down near the cast iron?

If it is close to 3 1/8", I'm thinking that you may be able to get a 3" copper pipe to place down into the lead pipe so that it touches the cast iron. If you clean the lead pipe with steel wool, wash with muriatic acid, and apply a thin coat of flux, you might be successful to pour molten lead around the copper pipe. I would also tin the copper pipe before inserting it in the lead pipe. You could then use a 3"x2" copper swage to get to the 2" shower drain size.

If that dimension is closer to 3 1/4", the 3"x2" copper swage would fit down onto the cast iron pipe better than the pipe. you could then solder the 2" pipe to the swage and pour the lead around that assembly with the 2" sticking up above the floor.

Don't fill the annular space all the way to the floor, but rather leave a little space where you can use a large soldering iron to assure a seal between then lead you poured and the lead pipe.

You do realize the vent will need to go vertical from that point regardless, so the shower will need to be offset from that point as the shower drain will need to be 10" to 12" away from the vent.

This would be a lot of lead and a lot of work for a makeshift shower drain connection.

I'd like some other members to comment on this suggested possible solution.

 

[dmmsr]

Are you doing this yourself without a permit? Just wondering as there may be other ways that this can be done, though not strictly per code.

Can you get a good dimension of the lead pipe down near the cast iron?

If it is close to 3 1/8", I'm thinking that you may be able to get a 3" copper pipe to place down into the lead pipe so that it touches the cast iron. If you clean the lead pipe with steel wool, wash with muriatic acid, and apply a thin coat of flux, you might be successful to pour molten lead around the copper pipe. I would also tin the copper pipe before inserting it in the lead pipe. You could then use a 3"x2" copper swage to get to the 2" shower drain size.

If that dimension is closer to 3 1/4", the 3"x2" copper swage would fit down onto the cast iron pipe better than the pipe. you could then solder the 2" pipe to the swage and pour the lead around that assembly with the 2" sticking up above the floor.

Don't fill the annular space all the way to the floor, but rather leave a little space where you can use a large soldering iron to assure a seal between then lead you poured and the lead pipe.

You do realize the vent will need to go vertical from that point regardless, so the shower will need to be offset from that point as the shower drain will need to be 10" to 12" away from the vent.

This would be a lot of lead and a lot of work for a makeshift shower drain connection.

I'd like some other members to comment on this suggested possible solution.

If going your way, I would just make it easier (possibly) instead of pouring lead. Either a service weight gasket and jam it in there with the pipe making sure it is tight or pack oakum and just put hydraulic cement around it.

 

[MicEd69]

If going your way, I would just make it easier (possibly) instead of pouring lead. Either a service weight gasket and jam it in there with the pipe making sure it is tight or pack oakum and just put hydraulic cement around it.

Yes, if the pipe is tight, packing with oakum for most of the joint would be a good idea. But instead of hydraulic cement, I'd still use poured lead, just like an old cast iron joint. Just need to be careful packing the oakum, as the lead pipe looks a little funnel shaped and you want to keep the copper pipe centered over the cast iron pipe.

 

[Twowaxhack]

So where’s the P trap going and how will it be vented ?

 

[MicEd69]

So where’s the P trap going and how will it be vented ?

I said in one of my earlier posts, "You do realize the vent will need to go vertical from that point regardless, so the shower will need to be offset from that point as the shower drain will need to be 10" to 12" away from the vent."

And Shadowdoc initially said that he would "raise the shower on a platform".

My thought was that he could use a 2" copper Sanitee at the "toilet connection" as low as possible. He could then transition the vent side to PVC and 45 over to the wall, then run horizontally (sloped 1/4" per foot of course) to the vent on the sink which is also copper. And I would suggest a copper P-trap under an elevated shower base with a right or left shower drain pan, whichever places his shower in the best position.

He may need to limit the shower to people who are under 5'6" depending on the basement ceiling height. LOL.

But those were my thoughts.

Or he might want to tear out all that copper drainpipe and sell it and replumb the entire house. LOL

 

[Twowaxhack]

Ok so he’s planning on raising the shower on a platform and making room for fittings to vent the P trap before it dumps into that old toilet arm.

Got it

 

[dmmsr]

Yes, if the pipe is tight, packing with oakum for most of the joint would be a good idea. But instead of hydraulic cement, I'd still use poured lead, just like an old cast iron joint. Just need to be careful packing the oakum, as the lead pipe looks a little funnel shaped and you want to keep the copper pipe centered over the cast iron pipe.

I mentioned hydraulic cement only because lead joints are a dinosaur now. Not too many people do it. There are newer plumbers who don't even solder and to ask someone to pour a lead joint is not really practical anymore.

 

[MicEd69]

I mentioned hydraulic cement only because lead joints are a dinosaur now. Not too many people do it. There are newer plumbers who don't even solder and to ask someone to pour a lead joint is not really practical anymore.

Yes, I understand. I was just suggesting what I would try.

If Shadowdoc was going to call a plumber, I'm sure the plumber would insist on tearing up the concrete floor and redoing the plumbing entirely, something Shadowdoc was wanting to avoid. So, my suggestion was simply to offer a possible solution that he could try himself, even though it would require some experience in perform such a task.

The way the toilet riser appears to be flared out at the top, I just wasn't sure one would get a good seal between hydraulic cement and the lead and/or copper pipe.

There was a string of posts earlier about wiped lead pipe joints. Try to find a plumber today that would/can do those!

 

[Shadowdoc]

Thanks for all the input.

Just to answer a few questions….lol.

I do plan on doing it myself. I really can’t raise the shower base too much as the ceiling height is fairly low to begin with.

RE-plumb the whole house??? NOOOO it’s a 9000 sq ft church lol. But more copper than I have ever seen.

I used a low profile P trap in a tub I installed in one of the bathrooms upstairs and it works perfectly fine.

5 bathrooms and there wasn’t a shower or tub when I bought it. Then again, it’s was a church.

I think I’ll have to dig up some
Of the concrete and work with that as a plan for now.

I am optimistic that it can be done without getting too crazy.

Thanks again to everyone. Happy holidays!

 

[dmmsr]

It is a bit more work but well worth chipping and digging. Good luck with everything.

 

[TomFOhio]

How deep is that pipe going down.

 

[Shadowdoc]

How deep is that pipe going down.

Lead from floor goes down for 12”. Iron for another 10” to base of the T.

Total depth 22” from floor to base of iron pipe.