Submersible well pump low volume

[vortex0606]

Hi it's a pleasure to join this group.
A strange submersible pump issue that I cannot seem to figure out. I have a submersible well pump 1/2 hp in a 60 ft well. The pump is only 4 years old and it's been working flawlessly until now. Very randomly I will lose pressure and volume and the only way to fix it is to cycle the power on and off from the pump breaker. The issue seems to go away for usually up to a few weeks and sometimes it reappears again require me to cycle the power again. I did notice one time when it occurred I was viewing the pressure gauge and there was a slight hammer sound in the pipes when the pump was energized by the pressure switch. The pump pressure was consistent at 20 psi and could not go any higher while running a faucet. Again the only way to fix it was to cycle power. My thought was could there be some type of cavitation issue and it's random and by cycling the pump stops the cavitation issue at that time? Any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like you are pumping the well dry, losing prime, which requires power off and back on to burp the air.

 

[vortex0606]

Sounds like you are pumping the well dry, losing prime, which requires power off and back on to burp the air.

Good point but wouldn't this well starve eventually when I run a free flow test? Here's my theory and please feel free to tell me if I'm way off. There could be a problem with the check valve which is causing an air pocket. When the pump turns on I get a slight hammer sound from the air pocket happens. This causes cavitation in the pump and by cycling power stops the cavitation and starts to work good until the situation repeats itself. Like I said this is very intermittent might only do it every couple weeks. I free-flowed the pump and the volumes there I get about 10 gallons a minute when this condition is not current.

 

[Valveman]

Now I am thinking when you see low pressure and volume the pump is not running. The overload in the motor could be tripping. These will auto reset and water just magically comes back on. Turning the breaker off and on was probably just a coincidence. The overload is an intermittent problem until it won't restart one day. Usually caused by too much cycling on and off.

 

[vortex0606]

Now I am thinking when you see low pressure and volume the pump is not running. The overload in the motor could be tripping. These will auto reset and water just magically comes back on. Turning the breaker off and on was probably just a coincidence. The overload is an intermittent problem until it won't restart one day. Usually caused by too much cycling on and off.

Thanks for the reply. I know the pump is running though because water still coming out of the faucet and the pressure is like 20 psi and never increases. Stays like that until I shut the power off then turn it back on. The pressure then increases and then water is coming out of the faucet like normal.

 

[wpns]

Some kind of airlock? Check valve isn't going to get an air bubble unless there's air coming into the system, usually because you are running the well dry. Coupling between the motor and the pump slipping? This is a strange one!

 

[Valveman]

If after letting the well sit for 30 minutes or so, the pump will put out good water for a minute or three before dropping off, the well is being pump down. If after letting the well sit for a while the pump starts out pumping low volume and pressure, something is wrong with the pump.

 

[vortex0606]

Some kind of airlock? Check valve isn't going to get an air bubble unless there's air coming into the system, usually because you are running the well dry. Coupling between the motor and the pump slipping? This is a strange one!

Yeah I don't think I'm getting air in the system because I never hear any air coming out of the faucets.

 

[vortex0606]

If after letting the well sit for 30 minutes or so, the pump will put out good water for a minute or three before dropping off, the well is being pump down. If after letting the well sit for a while the pump starts out pumping low volume and pressure, something is wrong with the pump.

Thanks for the reply I really appreciate it. I still can't figure this out. I never have to wait any time it never starves for water and I never get air in the lines. Everything works fine but like I said it I have to cycle power to fix when it has a low pressure issue. Then it immediately is working fine for weeks. Would a bad bladder in the storage tank cause this? Like some kind of back feed hammering causing some type of cavitation of the pump? The tank is like 18 years old it's not leaking and it has 27 PSI in it. Just wondering if maybe the bladders get hard and not as pliable could cause some type of back feed when it initially turns on the pump causing this cavitation issue.

 

[RS]

Do you have a pressure tank with an excess air bleeder valve? We did at our previous home, then you never get any air out of a faucet.

 

[FishScreener]

Another potential is the backflow valve has an issue.

We had an irrigation pump at work, that was acting similar to yours. The disk in the check valve was getting loose and moving to the top of the valve, and restricting the flow. If you shut the pump down, it settled back on its seat, and worked fine for a while. It finally failed and stayed stuck.

but check everything you can above ground. Do you have an ammeter, you would be comfortable working around the wiring on the pump with? If so check the amp draw, to the pump, when it has the issue, and when it doesn’t. Do you have an above ground pump controller, with a couple of capacitors in it? If so check them.

 

[vortex0606]

Do you have a pressure tank with an excess air bleeder valve? We did at our previous home, then you never get any air out of a faucet.

No I don't I never get any air though. The flow seems pretty good with no air burping out

 

[vortex0606]

Another potential is the backflow valve has an issue.

We had an irrigation pump at work, that was acting similar to yours. The disk in the check valve was getting loose and moving to the top of the valve, and restricting the flow. If you shut the pump down, it settled back on its seat, and worked fine for a while. It finally failed and stayed stuck.

but check everything you can above ground. Do you have an ammeter, you would be comfortable working around the wiring on the pump with? If so check the amp draw, to the pump, when it has the issue, and when it doesn’t. Do you have an above ground pump controller, with a couple of capacitors in it? If so check them.

Yeah that sounds good thanks for the advice. I will check the current draw of the pump when the issues happening versus when it isn't happening. I'm an electrical engineer so I'm pretty comfortable with measuring current draw. This is a submersible well with no above controls other than the pressure switch. Not deep it's only about 67 ft.

 

[vortex0606]

Hey question what pumps do you guys recommend as far as manufacturers go? What's the industry standard for the highest quality pumps out there? If I decide to replace this pump I want to get a high quality pump. Thanks for your advice like always

 

[Valveman]

There really is no such thing as a high quality pump anymore. People have been searching for the cheapest pump they can find for so long, that now cheap built pumps are all that is available. All major brand pumps have been cheapened up over the years to compete with the cheap imports. My favorite is still a Grundfos pump end with a Franklin motor. But you can't buy them assembled. You will have to purchase them separately and put it together. It is not hard to do though. Although, even cheaply built pumps will last a long time if you eliminate cycling on and off. So, it is not worth paying several times more for a brand name pump. Just use a Cycle Stop Valve which will make any pump last longer. Using Cycle Stop Valves to eliminate cycling has made pumps last longer for over 30 years now. Which ironically is one reason pump companies have cheapened up their pumps even more, as the CSV has put a kink in the planned obsolescence amount of time they had built into pumps and motors.

 

[vortex0606]

I figured it out. Pull the pump out didn't see anything wrong with the pump visually. The inline check valve was bad which was creating the issue. What I think was happening was randomly it was restricting the flow and by cycling the power it would reposition the bad check valve allowing proper flow again. I replaced the check valve and so far so good. Thanks for everybody's help

 

[Valveman]

Should have just left that check valve out. The only check valve needed is the one down the well on the pump. That second check valve failed from the water hammer hitting it every time the pump came on, and it will do it again. But glad you figured it out.

 

[vortex0606]

Should have just left that check valve out. The only check valve needed is the one down the well on the pump. That second check valve failed from the water hammer hitting it every time the pump came on, and it will do it again. But glad you figured it out.

I put it back in because the pump manufacturer recommends a second check valve. And searching on all the other topics on here people also recommend a second check valve because the ones built into the pump are not robust and fail. The one that's on there just failed after over 20 years so I'm good with that

 

[Valveman]

In most states a check valve above ground is illegal. In Texas they say you must have a check valve at the tank, but you cannot have anything that causes a negative pressure on the underground line, which is what a check valve at the tank does. So, even the states that require them do not know have any idea what they are doing. I find that to be the case for most government regulations and recommendations from pump manufacturers.

Pump manufacturers just do not want their pump spinning backwards, so they recommend more than one check valve regardless of how bad it is for the system and don't care that it can cause your water to be contaminated. I get several calls a day where people tell me they have bad water hammer when the pump starts. I spend a lot of my time explaining that the manufacturers recommendations and even government regulations are wrong. But mostly I just say if you want to get rid of the water hammer, remove the second check valve. Even if you don't feel the water hammer the second check valve is causing the underground line to be under a negative pressure and any dog crap or pesticides in the soil by the pipe can be drawn into your water system.

It doesn't matter if they last 20 years or just 20 days, cycling the pump on and off is what causes check valves to fail the same as it causes the pump, tank, switches, starters, and everything else in a pump system to fail. If you eliminate the cycling a single check valve will not fail. You have to remember that pump manufacturers make recommendations because they want things to fail, they only want them to last a few days past the warranty date.

 

[vortex0606]

In most states a check valve above ground is illegal. In Texas they say you must have a check valve at the tank, but you cannot have anything that causes a negative pressure on the underground line, which is what a check valve at the tank does. So, even the states that require them do not know have any idea what they are doing. I find that to be the case for most government regulations and recommendations from pump manufacturers.

Pump manufacturers just do not want their pump spinning backwards, so they recommend more than one check valve regardless of how bad it is for the system and don't care that it can cause your water to be contaminated. I get several calls a day where people tell me they have bad water hammer when the pump starts. I spend a lot of my time explaining that the manufacturers recommendations and even government regulations are wrong. But mostly I just say if you want to get rid of the water hammer, remove the second check valve. Even if you don't feel the water hammer the second check valve is causing the underground line to be under a negative pressure and any dog crap or pesticides in the soil by the pipe can be drawn into your water system.

It doesn't matter if they last 20 years or just 20 days, cycling the pump on and off is what causes check valves to fail the same as it causes the pump, tank, switches, starters, and everything else in a pump system to fail. If you eliminate the cycling a single check valve will not fail. You have to remember that pump manufacturers make recommendations because they want things to fail, they only want them to last a few days past the warranty date.

No my check valve is not above the ground it's below the ground just above the pump where the pump manufacturer recommends it. I'm electrical engineer by profession so I'm a familiar with cycling pumps. Cycling is okay as long as you stay within the guidelines of the design and specifications of the supplier of the pump. Cooling the pump properly is the most important part. The pump that's in there now is 20 years old and it been cycling per the specification guidelines. I definitely do not agree with running a pump continuously when the pump manufacturers all agree upon a common installation method. I know there's CSVs out there but there's too much data not supporting that method. But maybe for some people work for but definitely not for me.