Soldering copper pipe in tight location- Help Needed Pics included

[amodoko]

Hey guys, need some help with soldering a frost free sillcock and I have a lot of questions. I'm a very basic DIY guy, so please excuse me for my ignorance, I don't know much and am still learning things... but I can do things well with good instructions and I really enjoy learning. And I have been working on repairing a leaky frost free faucet for my parents. There was a rusted bolt on the faucet that wouldn't budge after trying various methods (pb blaster, tapping with hammer, etc) so basically it seems it should be easier to just replace the entire sillcock instead of the washer/etc inside. The sillcock is about 30 years old anyways.

I've attached a bunch of pictures so you can see what I'm working with. It's a pretty tight space, due to the layout of the wooden support beams and the copper tubing, black insulated/rubbery pipe, and electrical wires that get in the way of the actual copper plumbing. But I have a couple of questions:

1) First, I won't do things if there is a serious safety concern. I don't know jack about a lot of Home repair things, and since there is a thin copper tubing (not the copper plumbing), black tube, and electrical wire that is close to the copper plumbing, I was worried about getting a propane torch in there. The thin copper tubing and black tube combo appears to go to one or both of my parents' gas furnace units. As you can see in the photos below, I've included the pics of the furnaces. I didn't want a flame in there to burst a pipe and cause some explosion or something.

2) As you can see from the photos, the frost free sillcock appears to be screwed on to the copper pipe. I tried removing it by holding the sillcock with a vise grip locking wrench while holding the copper piping with channel lock pliers, and it just won't budge. I didn't want to use too much force as I may accidentally put too much pressure on the copper piping. I wanted to spray it with pb blaster to loosen, but then quickly realized that would not be best since I may end up not getting it off anyways, in which case I would have to solder it and propane and pb blaster do not mix! Is it normal to not be able to get off old sillcocks that are screwed on... resulting in having to cut them out?

3) The other question I have is can I use a small butane pen torch to solder in this area? Since the area is so tight, I thought it would be best to use smaller torch, but then again a small butane torch pen may not be able to get hot enough for the solder to run properly.

4) Also, there is a shut off valve, seen in the pictures, that shuts off water to the sillcock. If I have to solder the new sillcock on, can I just leave that shut off valve in the closed position while I solder the sillcock on? Or will that melt a washer or something in the shut off valve? The shuff off to the whole house is old, and water leaks a bit even when I shut off water to the whole house, so I thought I could maybe just leave the shut off valve to the sillcock closed as well to prevent any leaking.

5) And any safety precautions you recommend for soldering in this tight space? So far all I was thinking was maybe gloves and impact resistant glasses. Are heat rags necessary in this case?

I apologize for this lengthy post, if the sillcock and copper piping were in a very accessible area with no obstructions, I would simply just cut it out and solder a new one on, but with the cramped workspace and the three unidentified wires/tubings... I want to be extra safe. Like I said, with instructions, I can do quite a lot, but I just don't have any experience soldering yet and want to be safe given this cramped space. I've remodeled a bathroom before myself (with your guys' help). I had to rip out a tub and install a new tub, install new drain plumbing underground, install water proof protection, and tile the surround. So I can do some things okay, but I just need some instruction.

Thanks for any help, I appreciate it

 

[johnjh2o]

First off that copper is soldered into the frost proof. Instead of trying to un-solder the joint cut the copper off between the valve and the frost proof. Re-connect the new frost proof using a coupling and a short section of copper pipe. The other copper lines are not gas they are for the AC. The wire looks like it can be moved enough so you don't burn it. As far as the wood wet it down a little with a wet rage. It doesn't look that close but being your first time using a torch I can see your concern. There is a heat shield that may help you.

http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/54/Flame+Protector.html
John

 

[IFIXH20]

The shutoff valve will be fine. Be sure to open the new hydrant before soldering, this will help protect the bibb washer, use a 1/2'' of solder per joint. You might want to have a spray bottle of water handy as well.

 

[amodoko]

Thanks for the replies guys, one quick question, would a compression fitting or shark bite fitting be okay to use in this case? Or do those leak easily? Since this will be in a ceiling that will be covered with drywall it won't be exposed so using a fitting may not be a good idea, but I have been suggested to use it by some handymen due to it being a tight space.

So would a shark bite be okay? Or do I have to solder this guy?

 

[IFIXH20]

You need to solder it

 

[amodoko]

Got another question though, I cut out the old frost free sillcock and there is not much copper to work with so I have to solder on a coupling and more copper as you guys already mentioned. But this is all going to be very close to the shut off valve pictured below. I have to have to shut off valve in the closed position though since the main water shut off inside my house allows a little bit of water to still run through the pipes and it will mess me up soldering. Can I really leave this shut off in a closed position (rather than the ideal position, of open) without messing up the valve? I'll be soldering quite a bit right by it and am worried about damaging the valve, possibly allowing water to rush in while I work, and also possibly heating the water up too much on the other side of the valve such that it bursts. I don't know jack, that's why I am asking all these questions. If there is a safer way to solder near a valve, please let me know, or if you recommend against it all together than I'll have to find a better way to shut off water to my whole house.

The only other solution would be to turn off the water outside my house from underground, and I don't know how to do that. I found what I think are the extra shut offs, pictured below, but I don't want to mess with them without reading up on it.

 

[johnjh2o]

The valve will be fine. You can solder your coupling with out doing any damage the the valve. The one you need to have open is the frost proof when your doing your soldering.

John

 

[stevemachine]

Yeah you'll be fine, I've seen guys solder on one side of the valve, turn the water on and then solder the other side. In emergency water shut downs, i don't think I'd tempt it that much but you can solder close to the valves. The water on the other side keeps the valve cool enough you don't have to worry about melting the rubber or the solder joint on the valve. Nothing to worry about. And definitely avoid shark bites in non accessible locations. They even say that on the packages I believe.

 

[IFIXH20]

The valves in the photo are lawn sprinkler valves , You can not turn the water off to the house there.
Just a little info. for you, Hydrant come in different length, maybe you can jump up a size or two and make one solder connection.

 

[amodoko]

Thanks so much guys, makes me feel a lot safer soldering near that valve now. I did buy a bunch of different lengths of sillcocks and even the longest (12 inch) needs a coupler and more copper, so I'm out of luck by changing sizes. But I'm going to try to tackle this today if I have time and I'll post pics once I'm done of the final product.

I want to double check something though. I bought my frost proof sillcocks at the store, they are made by AMERICAN VALVE. They are all shiny, not like the one I removed that was copper. The instructions say it can be soldered, but the guy at the hardware store said the shiny ones can't be soldered. I've attached pictures of them to see what you think. I was thinking they were brass, but it doesn't say that anywhere on the package. I guess my question is do these look like they can be soldered to copper pipe? And do they even make any frost proof sillcocks that can't be soldered to copper pipe? The copper sillcocks were a lot more expensive so I chose the shiny ones since this is my first time and want to buy cheap ones in case I mess something up.

 

[IFIXH20]

That is chrome plated brass, it's ok to solder. Be sure to clean the pipe and fitting , use sand paper on the pipe and a 1/2'' fitting brush on the coupling and hydrant. First clean pipe and fitting, then flux,then solder.

 

[IFIXH20]

If you have extra pipe and fitting, I would solder a couple fitting just to get a feel for it. Wipe all joints with a clean rag when finish, to remove excess flux.

 

[johnjh2o]

They can be soldered. Just be sure you clean the inside with sand cloth or a wire brush made to clean 1/2" fittings.

John

 

[stevemachine]

Just make sure you open the frost free valve before you solder onto it or you will melt the washer on it. But yeah like stated above clean and flux everything. Don't go too crazy with the flux, just enough to cover the pipe. Personally I spin the pipe after I insert the copper just to make sure it's evenly spread. But maybe that's just me

 

[phishfood]

From watching how flux acts when it is heated, it spreads itself pretty well. But I use very little flux on the joint, so I try to do everything I can to make sure it is spread around. Particularly on vertical piping, a little bit too much flux will have it running down a foot onto the piping, making it a pain to clean up so as not to have fugly joints. I don't do fugly joints.

So, no, it is not just you.

 

[stevemachine]

Oh I have definitely made that mistake by using too much, having it run down and the solder follows. Not a good time lol. I definitely agree, I try my best to make a nice joint, it can be tricky in tight spaces but it makes you feel good when it looks good

 

[johnjh2o]

Most when learning to solder over heat the joint and use more solder then needed.
When soldering 1/2" & 3/4" joints put the torch on one side of the fitting and touch the solder to the other side. When the solder melts on the side away from the torch the joint is hot enough. At that point remove the flame and apply the solder. A 1/2" joint takes a 1/2" of solder.

John

 

[IFIXH20]

John, you are so correct. I have been on many calls where DIYers apply too much HEAT soldering end caps and fitting and wonder why they can't get the leak to stop.

 

[amodoko]

Hey guys, thought I would post about my time trying to solder the frost free faucet in place. Let me tell you, the space I worked in was very cramped for me and made things really difficult. This was my first time soldering so the lack of space was definitely a worry of mine.

As you can tell from the pics, I did a very messy soldering job on the coupling, but a decent one on the sillcock attaching to the 1/2 inch copper. I am actually surprised nothing leaked right away since my soldering job was so messy and it seemed like I had missed a few areas around the joint due to not having a good view of all sides of the coupling.

I used 1/2 inch type M copper pipe with a coupler with a stop in it. I also used lead silver bearing lead free solder and water soluble lead free flux that came with a benzomatic propane torch kit.

Before I started soldering on the final products, I did practice soldering a joint twice. Came out decent for my first try, a bit messy though. Then I went on to the real deal...

I soldered the sillcock to the new copper piping (after prepping/cleaning/sanding/fluxing) outside my house and thus it was easier to do than the coupling. It came out okay, not great, but decent. It took a long time to heat up the joint up since the sillcock was brass I guess but it worked eventually, I just hope I didn't burn all the flux away by heating too long.

I then inserted the sillcock into the opening in the side of the house with the new soldered copper on it and used 100 percent silicone around the egdes of the sillcock to create a weather resistant seal between the house and the sillcock. I also drilled holes into the mortar and brick and inserted anchors and screws to hold the sillcock in place.

Then I went inside and soldered the coupling to the sillcock and to the indoor copper plumbing near a valve. I removed the entire handle and insides of the sillcock to prevent melting of the washer inside. I soldered near the valve inside my house without a wet rag on the valve since it seemed to take too long to heat the joint and I worried the flux would burn away. At this point I worried more about the flux burning away than protecting the indoor shut off valve. The soldering of the coupling was extremely difficult for me since the space was so cramped (from a beginner's viewpoint). It was difficult in comparison to soldering in a more open space. It took a long time to heat the joint (may have been that I used a small flame since I didn't want to burn the house and at first I had a wet rag on a nearby valve to prevent melting of the rubber in the valve) and at first the solder would just clump off and come off but finally it started to flow. I stopped after thinking it was enough solder, then quickly realized that the side of the coupling I couldn't see did not get enough solder. Even though you need to redo the entire joint, I decided to quickly just reheat it and get the areas I missed (even though the joint had been cooling for about 90 seconds). I got most of the areas I missed on the second try. At this point I thought the joint would fail and I would have leaks due to it being heated twice, the fact that I felt I burned away too much flux and overheated the joint in some way, and that it looked like I missed some spots. I waited about 4 minutes for things too cool naturally and turned the water on for a few seconds... then off... no leaks. Then I reinstalled the innards to the sillcock (I removed them to protect the washer) and then turned the water on again and left it on. No leaks.

So it seems I was able to create a functional solder joint, but it was not done cosmetically well and mechanically well, but I guess it was good enough to work.

The only functional problem I have is that the new sillcock leaks a bit from the spout! Which was my ORIGINAL problem! The outside part, LOL. It drips about once every 10 seconds. Either I have a faulty washer/sillcock, or maybe when soldering... some of the solder dripped in too far and obstructed the seal between where the washer would sit and the inside of the sillcock? I don't know.

Either way, I'm happy to have created functional joints that don't leak, but a little bit annoyed that the new sillcock leaks a bit from its spout. I was thinking about putting some silicone grease on the washer to help create a better seal inside the sillcock to prevent leakage, but don't know if that is okay with potable water.

Does anyone know why the new sillcock may be leaking? I am leaning towards just a faulty washer or the fact that some solder dripped in too far and is making a slight obstruction. Either way, at this point, I am not starting all over and installing a new sillcock, that is out of the question, hahaha.

But I basically just wanted to make this post to show you guys the final result. Thanks to everyone that helped me, I am glad I did this but I realize a need a lot more practice. But at least now I know the basic mechanics of how to solder, I just need to practice more. I had a great time learning, thanks again.

Feel free to make any comments, negative or positive, I welcome any criticism or concerns about the job I did. Thanks again

P.S. Some of the black stuff you see on the coupling is a burnt price tag on the coupling (I left the tag on since only the inside of the coupling was where the solder would flow). And some of the clear clumps you see on the sillcock threads and pipe are some silicone that attached to it when inserting it inside the hole in the house.

 

[johnjh2o]

Did your drip stop? On frost proofs after turning them off they will drip for awhile. That is the water draining out. It's what makes them frost proof.

John