Pressure booster with a jet pump

[jbny]

Hello,
I'm a novice when it comes to plumbing, particularly in this category. We have a house in which water is supplied by a lake. The setup is a wayne 3/4 hp jet pump connected to an underground hose/pipe that runs into the lake that is about 45 feet away. Pump is connected to a 32 gallon pressurized tank, which then supplies water to the house that is elevated about 10 feet above the tank, with the second story being about 20 feet above. The water pressure is pretty bad, which I would expect from this type of setup, but sometimes it drop so low that there is barely enough water to brush teeth or wash hands. Shower pressure is awful.

Is there a way to add a water pressure booster pump to the current setup? The only other thing I can think of is the pump may be pulling in sediment from the foot valve, which is about 18 inches above the sand and 2 feet below the water surface. I will try to clean that when I get a chance, but was curious if a booster pump could be used along with a jet pump to keep the pressure higher?

Any info or ideas would be greatly appreciated. I'd be happy to provide more information if it helps.
Thanks a lot.

 

[havasu]

What is the rise of elevation from the lake to the pump?

 

[Jeff Handy]

You probably have (or should have) a water treatment system or filtering system of some sort.
That system might be clogged up.

 

[Valveman]

A jet pump is a booster pump. If the pump isn't large enough just get a larger one, but you don't want to try double pumping. You may have a suction leak or a restriction. Or that pump just may not build the pressure and lift from that far down.

 

[jbny]

ok, thanks for the replies. The elevation from the lake to the pump is about 6 or 7 feet. However, the pump is located closer to the house than it is to the lake in a small insulated shed. I thought a jet pump would act as a booster, so does that mean that the draw from the lake cant keep up the pressure in the bladder tank fast enough? The pump is 3/4 hp 50 gpi with a cutin of 30 and cutout at 50, if that means anything pressure wise. I guess it might be pulling sediment, but I am not sure as I cant check it at the moment.

thanks again

 

[Jeff Handy]

You could pump from the lake to a holding tank, then another pump into the house from there.

I think that long line from the lake also adds pipe friction, which would act like adding more head.

 

[jbny]

You could pump from the lake to a holding tank, then another pump into the house from there.

I think that long line from the lake also adds pipe friction, which would act like adding more head.

That might be a good option, so basically adding a cistern and using a booster? Also, might be a dumb question, but would a submersible pump be an option? Or would that be an electrical issue since it is a lake?

 

[Jeff Handy]

Having a storage tank might also allow access for some water safety treatment or quality treatment.

 

[RS]

Maybe you could just increase the pressure setting on the existing pump, but depending on the pump it might be close to its maximum psi at 50. What do you mean 50 gpi? If you truly are sucking in some silt you would see it in your toilet tanks, have you looked? A submersible pump would provide much more pressure, but they don't like silt. We pump water from the lake with a sprinkler pump for our lawn with a similar system, but our pump only develops 45 psi, but pumps 50 gpm, so we can run 12 heads at once. It's 1 1/2 hp pump. The way you describe your system it would be nice to have 70 psi at the pump, and a lot of jet pumps won't develop that much pressure.

 

[jbny]

Maybe you could just increase the pressure setting on the existing pump, but depending on the pump it might be close to its maximum psi at 50. What do you mean 50 gpi? If you truly are sucking in some silt you would see it in your toilet tanks, have you looked? A submersible pump would provide much more pressure, but they don't like silt. We pump water from the lake with a sprinkler pump for our lawn with a similar system, but our pump only develops 45 psi, but pumps 50 gpm, so we can run 12 heads at once. It's 1 1/2 hp pump. The way you describe your system it would be nice to have 70 psi at the pump, and a lot of jet pumps won't develop that much pressure.

Sorry, I meant 50 gallons per minute not gpi. I called the manufacturer and was told that I can't go any higher on the cutout which is preset to 50. Its 3/4 hp, so maybe a stronger pump would work? I wasn't sure about a submersible pump since it is in a lake and am not sure about electrical issues/codes. I know there is some silt that seems to settle in the toilet tanks, but not sure how to remedy that or how to increase overall pressure.

 

[RS]

I find it hard to believe that a 3/4 hp pump will pump 50 gpm! Our sprinkler pump is 1 1/2 hp and only pumps about 50 gpm, and at 45 psi. Anyhow, a jet pump is really not what you want, they lose efficiency because of the jet, but that is necessary to pump from depths deeper than about 8 feet. But you are not lifting the water that far, so a jet should not be necessary. Our sprinkler pump is not a jet pump, because it is only 4 feet above the lake water level. You could put 2 pumps in series, with the second acting as a booster pump, and start them off the same pressure control switch. the power supply wire would have to be sized accordingly, there would be a very high draw when they both start. 2 pumps would easily develop the 70 psi you want. My BIL has a similar situation, but he has a submersible, and the well house is 70 feet below the top floor of his house, they have the pressure switch set up to about 100 psi.

 

[RS]

I forgot to mention, they do make centrifugal pumps that will develop higher pressure. I rebuilt one once, but just put it back in service, watering a lawn, it had 2 impellers in series, similar to a submersible. I just put in new bearings and a seal, that's all they normally require, if pumping clean water

 

[Valveman]

You can get jet pumps that build more pressure. The J5SH and the J15S will both work with pressure switch settings as high as 50/70. However, I think the long suction line is your problem. There are too many chances for a suction leak and high places to trap air. Moving the pump closer to the lake will help. Pumps like to push water but can't suck from very far.

A cistern or storage tank will work if you can't get the pressure to the house you want. A submersible in the lake would deliver all the pressure you want, it the local authorities allow it? But getting a pump that can build more pressure and moving it to the lake would solve the problem.

 

[jbny]

I find it hard to believe that a 3/4 hp pump will pump 50 gpm! Our sprinkler pump is 1 1/2 hp and only pumps about 50 gpm, and at 45 psi. Anyhow, a jet pump is really not what you want, they lose efficiency because of the jet, but that is necessary to pump from depths deeper than about 8 feet. But you are not lifting the water that far, so a jet should not be necessary. Our sprinkler pump is not a jet pump, because it is only 4 feet above the lake water level. You could put 2 pumps in series, with the second acting as a booster pump, and start them off the same pressure control switch. the power supply wire would have to be sized accordingly, there would be a very high draw when they both start. 2 pumps would easily develop the 70 psi you want. My BIL has a similar situation, but he has a submersible, and the well house is 70 feet below the top floor of his house, they have the pressure switch set up to about 100 psi.

So yea, its not 50 gpm, and I don't know where I got that from...its 520 gph, which I think would be about 8.5 gpm. Way off. Its at about lake level, and pulls about 50 feet before the bladder tank, and the highest point in the house is probably at least 20 to 25 feet above that.

Was looking around and thought this might be a good solution:

https://towle-whitney.com/water-booster-pumps/simplex-water-booster/
Looking at the TW1000-10W-40 model, which I guess could be used in addition to the original pump if it is moved. Any thoughts??
And thanks for the replies, you've all been a huge help.

 

[Valveman]

So yea, its not 50 gpm, and I don't know where I got that from...its 520 gph, which I think would be about 8.5 gpm. Way off. Its at about lake level, and pulls about 50 feet before the bladder tank, and the highest point in the house is probably at least 20 to 25 feet above that.

Was looking around and thought this might be a good solution:

https://towle-whitney.com/water-booster-pumps/simplex-water-booster/
Looking at the TW1000-10W-40 model, which I guess could be used in addition to the original pump if it is moved. Any thoughts??
And thanks for the replies, you've all been a huge help.

Wow! You are really asking to get stuck with a Tar Baby of a pump system. Those variable speed systems are made for the factory to make a lot of money with, which is why they can afford so much advertising. The J15S and a PK1A would only cost about 800 bucks, would deliver much better pressure, and last 30+ years. That variable speed system will need to be replaced several times in that length of time at several times the cost for each replacement. Maybe you need to read a few reviews from people who have already been through those problems and learned that a CSV is a much better choice. See this Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

 

[jbny]

Wow! You are really asking to get stuck with a Tar Baby of a pump system. Those variable speed systems are made for the factory to make a lot of money with, which is why they can afford so much advertising. The J15S and a PK1A would only cost about 800 bucks, would deliver much better pressure, and last 30+ years. That variable speed system will need to be replaced several times in that length of time at several times the cost for each replacement. Maybe you need to read a few reviews from people who have already been through those problems and learned that a CSV is a much better choice. See this Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

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Ok, thanks for the info. I will definitely look into what you said.

 

[jbny]

Ok, thanks for the info. I will definitely look into what you said.

I was just looking at what you wrote. So it would be different/new jet pump and the side-kick pressure tank kit together? Or would be able to use the existing pump, which is a wayne SWS75? And would you recommend a size pump and what pressure guage would be compatible? They have up to 70 psi on the pk1a from what I can tell. Im just not knowledgeable enough about these to know what would work together for the best constant pressure from the lake.

Thanks again for the help

 

[Valveman]

Sure the PK1A kit will work with that pump. But the SWS75 will only work with a 30/50 pressure switch, which won't give you the good pressure you want. You need a pump large enough to give good flow and pressure, then the CSV in the PK1A will hold it at a constant pressure and make it seem much stronger. But you will need a pump like a Goulds J10S that has a max pressure of at least 70 PSI to work with a 40/60 switch. A pump like the Goulds J15S will build a max of 80 PSI and will work with a 50/70 pressure switch. Using a 50/70 switch with a CSV1A setting for 60 PSI constant will just blast dirt off of you in the shower, and you won't even need soap.

 

[jbny]

Sure the PK1A kit will work with that pump. But the SWS75 will only work with a 30/50 pressure switch, which won't give you the good pressure you want. You need a pump large enough to give good flow and pressure, then the CSV in the PK1A will hold it at a constant pressure and make it seem much stronger. But you will need a pump like a Goulds J10S that has a max pressure of at least 70 PSI to work with a 40/60 switch. A pump like the Goulds J15S will build a max of 80 PSI and will work with a 50/70 pressure switch. Using a 50/70 switch with a CSV1A setting for 60 PSI constant will just blast dirt off of you in the shower, and you won't even need soap.

So Im gonna attach a picture of my poorly drawn setup and a possible setup and I was curious if something like this would work. Could we keep the original pump at ground level and have the new CSV and tank much closer to the house? Or would we need to just replace everything in the small shed that contains the original pump and tank. Just not sure if two pumps are viable or would even work together with this setup. I see how the CSV prevents pump cycling and I think that would be our best bet (thank you for sharing that information), but am not sure how to go about it. Any info would be extremely helpful. Its been very difficult to even find a plumber right now to come and take a look, so this forum is fantastic. Please excuse my rough sketches, hopefully you can see what I am talking about and I can always add more info if needed. Thanks again

Also, since I am trying to help my parents out with their house, my father had a question. The pump we have now has a capped stem on it and he wondered it was possible to tie into that. I'll include a picture of our current setup from a camera.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks for the pictures and drawings. I see your problem. No you can't put the pump up at the house, as a shallow well jet pump can lift a max of about 24' at sea level. You will need to push the water up, not suck it up. The 30' of elevation and the 20' to the top of the house add 50' or 20 PSI to the total head. That pump is probably working with a 30/50 pressure switch, which means you are seeing between 10 and 30 PSI on the top floor. I don't think I could run around in the shower fast enough to get wet. Lol!

You can put a submersible in the lake and have as much pressure as you want. Or you can replace that pump with one that has a max pressure of 80 PSI, like the J15S I recommended. You could set the pressure switch to 50/70, which would give you 30 to 50 on the top floor. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve would give you a constant 40 PSI on the top floor, which is 400% stronger pressure than you have now.

Another option is a multi-stage booster pump like a Goulds 10GB10, 1HP. These pumps are basically just a multi-stage submersible pump end with a jet pump type motor. As with a submersible out in the pond, you can have as much pressure as you want. The 10GB10 would work with a pressure switch setting of 80/100, which would give you 60/80 at the house and a constant 70 using the CSV1A. With 70 PSI constant in the shower you will not even need to ever clean the grout again.

I have done systems like this up to 400 PSI, when the house is on top of a 800' tall mountain. This is why I always complain about people complaining they don't have good pressure like in a city. It is your water system. You can have as much pressure as you want. Just need enough of a pump to make it happen.