"Point of Use" or "Whole House Tankless"?

[Twowaxhack]

All that said above, I have customers who are not happy with their electric tankless.

And They pay me to remove it and install a tank.

go figure....

Fox News here has paid me thousands changing out point of use water heaters throughout their facility.
I have two more office building with electric tankless that pay me at least twice a year to service an electric tankless and they have 4 of them.

 

[bartleyhs]

Twowaxhack is the expert, so I defer.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Twowaxhack is the expert, so I defer.

It’s good that we both share the experiences so the readers can get different perspectives.

You’re the expert on your experiences and you make valid claims. You and the OP think more a like than me. Hot water use is a personal matter to be honest. I have these talks with my customers quite a bit.

 

[bartleyhs]

To the OP. One other thought about why this stuff works better in Europe and is therefore more mainstream. Most of their stuff is made in Italy or Germany. Most of ours is made in China.

 

[bartleyhs]

It’s good that we both share the experiences so the readers can get different perspectives.

You’re the expert on your experiences and you make valid claims. You and the OP think more a like than me. Hot water use is a personal matter to be honest. I have these talks with my customers quite a bit.

Thanks TWH. I have read other posts where you go pretty hard against people who disagree with you, so it is actually really good to hear you say that.

It’ s not just hot water preferences to consider. The OP doesn’t want to take up the space in their small floorplan. Also, to replace a tankless is about a 10 minute job, while replacing a tank involves draining and hauling heavy items in and out of the house.
I just wanted to make sure they knew of the added wiring requirements. I didnt when I came back from oversees, and decided I wanted one, and had a rude awakening when I saw all that was involved, but like I said, since they are building the house much easier to wire it in for the tankless. Then if they wanted to switch to a tank later, they just abandon the extra wires. If you start with a tank and then switch the added wiring is a pain.
Have a good day, and thanks again.

 

[JG plumbing]

The ONLY benifit of tankless is endless hot water. But that is also variable.

If I were you I'd get a boiler, heat the slab, use that for your hot water. You can get pretty small boilers that'll handle a lot of heat. Although not a fan of electric.

 

[Arby]

The US seems to always be behind on this kind of stuff. Probably poitics, and the pros liking what they know and being skeptical change.

That's what I suspected but didn't want to say so.

 

[Twowaxhack]

That's what I suspected but didn't want to say so.

No, it’s that we have gas in most places.

Electric water heaters do not put out the water that my customers want.

I have one customer that has a 9.6 gallon 180,000 BTU tankless just for his shower that runs 5-6 gallons a minute.

For Electric tankless to run his whole house I’d have to have 4 or 5 of them snd the neighborhood lights would dim when they came on......

Most Americans do not want a 1 gallon per minute shower. That’s what you’d get without big money electrical upgrades if you want to run more than one shower.

To run my shower I would need the biggest Electric tankless that Steibel makes for a home. That’s just for my shower with the volume I use.

I’m not interested in saving money on water or gas unless I still get what I want while doing so.

I’d rather have a lot of water in the shower. I’d say 95% of my customers have the same attitude.

I take a shorter shower with more water.....rather than longer shower with less water.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Thanks TWH. I have read other posts where you go pretty hard against people who disagree with you, so it is actually really good to hear you say that.

It’ s not just hot water preferences to consider. The OP doesn’t want to take up the space in their small floorplan. Also, to replace a tankless is about a 10 minute job, while replacing a tank involves draining and hauling heavy items in and out of the house.
I just wanted to make sure they knew of the added wiring requirements. I didnt when I came back from oversees, and decided I wanted one, and had a rude awakening when I saw all that was involved, but like I said, since they are building the house much easier to wire it in for the tankless. Then if they wanted to switch to a tank later, they just abandon the extra wires. If you start with a tank and then switch the added wiring is a pain.
Have a good day, and thanks again.

That’s why it’s good to locate the water heater outside the home, it doesn’t take up the floor plan.

An electric heater outside the home would only take a few minutes to replace. 3 pipes and one wire......

Tanks give you a reserve if the power goes out, you can at least finish your shower.

A 40 gallon water heater isn’t heavy. One person can manage it easily. My wife can dolly them around and she’s 100 pounds.

Tankless are more sensitive to water conditions and require more maintenance. So you’ll save on electricity then spend it on maintenance. What about the time you spend ? Accessibility of repair parts ? Skilled labor needed to repair your new electric tankless but can’t find anyone willing to work on it.

If they don’t want a tank in the house today then why would they want one later?


Just a different perspective.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The ONLY benifit of tankless is endless hot water. But that is also variable.

If I were you I'd get a boiler, heat the slab, use that for your hot water. You can get pretty small boilers that'll handle a lot of heat. Although not a fan of electric.

We have a lot of electric heaters down south.

Water temps from the city supply run around 75-80 degrees in the summer and around 65 in winter.

Electrics have a turtle pace recovery compared to gas but with our high cold water temps it still performs.

Electric tankless however still is not attractive because of the wire the size of a garden hose you need to run one for anything more than one fixture if that with the volume most people want.

 

[GReynolds929]

Tanked or tankless has nothing to do with temp fluctuations when water is run. You most likely have a non pressure balancing faucet and had the Tanked heater turned up to get more "capacity" and with the tankless it is not turned up as high because you're not worried about running out of hot water.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

The typical or average standards of Americans are vastly different than UK/Europe and most of the world.
In a lot of the UK they still have hot water that is gravity fed vs the cold under pressure. So, no mixing faucets, or typical shower valves that we are used to. Their solution? A bathroom sink with a scalding hot water faucet and one ice cold. Warm water? Put the rubber plug in the drain and mix it yourself in the sink. Right. Just like my grandmother’s house in 1937.
Well what about a shower? Relative to the USA it’s a new thing. Cannot have a typical shower valve because you cannot mix gravity fed hot with pressure fed cold. So they invented these small electric point of use water heaters for the shower called “electric showers”. The best of them would only make a shower worthy of one on a submarine: lousy pressure and lukewarm water. Trust me on that-I stayed in a B&B with one and any Motel 6 is infinitely superior. If you’re okay with a low flow of warm water for your shower it may work. http://bestelectricappliances.com/

As for the solar setup yes all homes in Israel (and others in this sunny part of the world such as Greece and Turkey) generally have a roof mounted highly insulated tank with two hot water solar collectors, thermosiphon operation. They have backup electric which typically the residents don’t like to use because it is so costly. If the sun isn’t shining you are not making hot water. If it’s cloudy out and they forgot to turn on the electric? No hot water. Been there and done that in Israel too. Not too many places in the USA with enough sun to justify this.

We live in the greatest country in the world and part of that has to do with...plumbing!!! Yes for the most part you can drink the water out of the tap (Flint Michigan not withstanding) anywhere in the USA, and we can enjoy cold, warm or hot showers at our choice. We embraced mixing faucets and we have a number of ways to heat our water—most of them superior to the rest of the world. We have mostly sanitary flush toilets too—not veritable holes in ground like many Asian countries.

 

[Arby]

I think it's a matter of ideals and cultural differences, rather than one of being more comfortable or convenient. Besides my friend that lived in France, we have a friend from the UK, two from Germany...and one from Finland and Norway. We have known a couple of those since the mid 80s, the others since the early 90s. During their visits here in the States with us, not once have they said anything of our plumbing being better than theirs, or anything else for that matter...except fuel prices which, are far less here. The differences they mention is of gross gluttony instead, the waste, overuse and supersize of everything. Being raised on a family owned farm and ranch, by parents who instilled in me the value of not wasting, I could completely relate to my foreign friends bewilderment of American ways...and not be offended by their contempt.

There's no denying that we in the US have the privilege of far more comfortable and convenient living environments than many in the world have. But I don't think the developed countries around the world and particularly Europe are amongst those.

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

We built a cabin that we lived in for 5 years while an old home was being demolished and rebuilt. At less then half the square ft. of your home, it was very comfortable, and built for energy efficiency. There was one bath with full size washer & dryer & a 36" shower. I'm more comfortable with the safety of an electric water heater in a small environment, provided it has been properly installed. I used a 30 gal. 240V water heater with the highest wattage elements for that size (highest recovery rate). You can always choose to run the washer after showers, and there was enough hot water for two comfortable showers. A common brand of water heater in your area with good performance history would enable you to have better access to spare parts. We used the short-form water heater and put it in a wide cabinet with plenty of clearance and of course a drip pan. The kitchen and bath were back-to-back. Water-saver parts were not removed from the shower, but we had a model that had plenty of pressure and volume.

In a small living environment, you can plan the organization of your services so there are no long runs of plumbing or electrical lines. We used a mini-split for heating and air, and even with a low thermostat setting in the summers, the electrical bills were almost embarrassingly low. I also used LED lights, and we had a standard freestanding range/oven. On the coldest days, an electric heater was all that was needed. We had a small Honda generator for backup power, but didn't use the water heater or range when the power was out. The microwave, coffee pot or crock pot would run with the generator for heating food or water.

When you have time to plan and organize, you see how much value you can extract from a living space. Energy requirements will also depend on how well-sealed and -insulated your home is, along with door and window efficiency and seal, and personal practices. Our bath ceiling vent had an electric heater also, allowing the bath to be warmer than the rest of the cabin for a shower.

Depending on your needs, you may even find a 20-gal. unit adequate. Calculate the flow rate and time for your high-use times, and the volume you would need at the highest temperature difference. Estimate less heating efficiency than is claimed and check the specs on actual tank volume, power requirements, element wattage and recovery rate, and use the specs for the shower and sink values (flow rates) you will be installing.

 

[Twowaxhack]

If you really want to save money then just get the smallest one made and take just a warm shower, not hot.

Turn the water off after you soap up then rinse once you’re finished washing.

This would save a lot.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

If you really want to save money...Turn the water off after you soap up then rinse once you’re finished washing...

It’s called a “Navy Shower”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower
And, you can find shower nozzles that cater to that:

https://www.bricor.com/products/ultramax/?v=7516fd43adaa
Combine that with a small shutoff valve before the head and that will be as about “efficient” as you can get...short of not showering at all.

Yes it’s a cultural thing. If you’ve ever been in a crowd of Europeans in the summer you’ll know what I mean. It’s why a full bathroom is in every hotel in the USA, but in Europe you may have to go down the hall and sometimes pay extra for a shower.

 

[Twowaxhack]

It’s called a “Navy Shower”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_shower
And, you can find shower nozzles that cater to that:

https://www.bricor.com/products/ultramax/?v=7516fd43adaa
Combine that with a small shutoff valve before the head and that will be as about “efficient” as you can get...short of not showering at all.

Yes it’s a cultural thing. If you’ve ever been in a crowd of Europeans in the summer you’ll know what I mean. It’s why a full bathroom is in every hotel in the USA, but in Europe you may have to go down the hall and sometimes pay extra for a shower.

Exactly, I didn’t want to confuse the youngsters.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

...and if you read clearly between the lines at the Wikipedia page on "Navy Showers" you'll see the similar thing on "Army Showers" where your soldier buddies do it for you. Confirmed by my father.
He also indicated that there was NO FRESH WATER (except for drinking) on his troop-ship journey during WWII from the west coast to the south pacific theater. Yes, a ship full of soldiers on a 30 day journey with little ability to keep clean.

What they did when the rains came is strip naked--all of them--and stand on deck enjoying a fresh water rinse. If you see any WWII vets around, thank them for their service.

 

[PerplexedPlumber]

At one time, long ago, you could buy shower attachments with on/off buttons for the shower spray (not a diverter to the tub valve). Those disappeared and the suppliers had said that these leaked. However, you can find these still for RVs, where hot water volume is limited. I kept one of the old ones for years, OK decades, and I'm sure it is somewhere still . . .

(a little different than a Navy/Army shower, but for the same purpose)

 

[havasu]

My Delta hand held combo shower head/hose has an on-off button, so they are still around.