Buckles
Member
Hi, I'm Buckles, the owner of Buckles Backflow testing. Just got Certified for Cross connection and Backflow testing, I'm located in Klamath Falls, Oregon.
Thanks for taking me on as a member.
Thanks for taking me on as a member.
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- Thread starter Buckles
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Glad to have you there are lots of backflow questions i was a backflow tester and surveyor for years when not working for a plumbing co
Buckles
Member
Thanks for replying. I've got a lot to learn and it's nice to know there is some experienced fellas to call on.
This is a new venture for me, because I just couldn't stand retirement sitting on the couch or traveling.
It gets cold in Oregon in the winter months and I might not like that. One other guy is doing the testing here and he charges $35.
Can't say as I'd like doing that. Hardly pays for all the bills, don't you think? The thing I don't understand is why they would
sell themselves so cheap when it takes a lot to get certified, licensed, bonded, not to mention the cost of it all, or the gas and time involved.
Anybody have any opinions on this? I'm just new at this.
This is a new venture for me, because I just couldn't stand retirement sitting on the couch or traveling.
It gets cold in Oregon in the winter months and I might not like that. One other guy is doing the testing here and he charges $35.
Can't say as I'd like doing that. Hardly pays for all the bills, don't you think? The thing I don't understand is why they would
sell themselves so cheap when it takes a lot to get certified, licensed, bonded, not to mention the cost of it all, or the gas and time involved.
Anybody have any opinions on this? I'm just new at this.
If he's charging 35 a test usually, when you get a city or town you go thru the tests and are able to test at least 20 in a few hours,sometimes you will get a hospital or a large bld you would easily have 20 devices in big places
They probably have low overhead and their cheap prices keeps anyone else from competing.
They may repair and replace them and selling that service is easy once you get your foot in the door with a cheap test price.
They may repair and replace them and selling that service is easy once you get your foot in the door with a cheap test price.
Buckles
Member
It makes sense charging $35 a test if a tester doesn't have to travel to each test, and from what I've heard, most dcv are covered with dirt or you have pump the water out to do a test. One kid in my class was working for a city in an area near Redmond Oregon, and he told me he has remove the dirt from all of them.
Also, do you think that if a test will encounter unexpected problems, that the tester should charge by the hour instead of flat rate. I'd like to hear from you pros that have been there and done that.
Also, do you think that if a test will encounter unexpected problems, that the tester should charge by the hour instead of flat rate. I'd like to hear from you pros that have been there and done that.
Here in mass there are height restrictions and if a test port is clogged unless it's cleared by the owner it fails the testers should have a book of regulations I'm sure they are just responsible for testing, i would think it's the owners responsibility to make it testable
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
Travel time certainly is a factor. You cannot go very far at $35/test (like maybe next door? 
) and expect to do this and make any money.
In the county (Wayne) that my car wash was in, license or no license, only those on the "approved" list from the county could do back flow testing. It was required annually. Cost was $120, and that was 15 years ago. There were only a limited number of approved contractors on the list. I had a 1.5" dual RPZ on the incoming water line, and then a small ¾" vacuum breaker AFTER that to feed the irrigation. Despite the fact that the VB was after the RPZ, it still needed to be tested. The first test on the RPZ was when the unit was 16 years old. The test guy said "it's passing but barely". The next year he came back, he did a rebuild with a few rubber parts, maybe a spring; it was a small kit of maybe $20 worth of parts. With the kit, the fee for rebuild, and the testing, that was about $200...and another $120 test the following year. In the six years I owned the car wash I spent about 3x the cost of a new RPZ in just testing what I had.
Testing requirements should be based upon something to do with the stat known as MTBF, mean time between failures. If RPZs fail testing reliably at 3-5 years, (they do not, BTW) then testing every other year sounds reasonable. If it took 16 years to "almost fail" on mine (I don't think I had a gold plated one), one that passed well over half a million gallons per year of water, annual testing is just a burden on the property owner and a bonus for those licensed to test.
The year before I left Michigan, the town I lived in started requiring annual testing of vacuum breakers for all those homeowners with irrigation systems. Very few people did this because it was a royal PIA to try and find someone to do it, and it was expensive. I was one of many people who said to our city, "If YOU want to test MY vacuum breaker, have at it. I'm not going to do it". They had a massive compliance problem and no way to deal with it...and they could not shut off water to the home.
) and expect to do this and make any money.In the county (Wayne) that my car wash was in, license or no license, only those on the "approved" list from the county could do back flow testing. It was required annually. Cost was $120, and that was 15 years ago. There were only a limited number of approved contractors on the list. I had a 1.5" dual RPZ on the incoming water line, and then a small ¾" vacuum breaker AFTER that to feed the irrigation. Despite the fact that the VB was after the RPZ, it still needed to be tested. The first test on the RPZ was when the unit was 16 years old. The test guy said "it's passing but barely". The next year he came back, he did a rebuild with a few rubber parts, maybe a spring; it was a small kit of maybe $20 worth of parts. With the kit, the fee for rebuild, and the testing, that was about $200...and another $120 test the following year. In the six years I owned the car wash I spent about 3x the cost of a new RPZ in just testing what I had.
Testing requirements should be based upon something to do with the stat known as MTBF, mean time between failures. If RPZs fail testing reliably at 3-5 years, (they do not, BTW) then testing every other year sounds reasonable. If it took 16 years to "almost fail" on mine (I don't think I had a gold plated one), one that passed well over half a million gallons per year of water, annual testing is just a burden on the property owner and a bonus for those licensed to test.
The year before I left Michigan, the town I lived in started requiring annual testing of vacuum breakers for all those homeowners with irrigation systems. Very few people did this because it was a royal PIA to try and find someone to do it, and it was expensive. I was one of many people who said to our city, "If YOU want to test MY vacuum breaker, have at it. I'm not going to do it". They had a massive compliance problem and no way to deal with it...and they could not shut off water to the home.
Buckles
Member
I haven't started testing yet, but I would expect different areas of the country and different environments dictate the conditions by which a water provider and a tester follow. I feel the pain you have experienced caused by your water supplier, but they have good reason to manage the safety of the public water system.
People do unexplainable things on their property and don't bother to ask themselves if what their doing could be harmful in some way.
In my backflow class a plumber was telling us about a guy that bought a farm that had a pond for irrigation. The farmer got deathly sick and didn't know why. One day the farmer called a plumber to fix an underground leak. The plumber started started tracing the lines and found a cross connection by-pass on the supply line going to the pond. They found out that the previous owner was pouring chemicals in the pond to fertilize the plants and the backflow was causing the new farmer to die.
Now this is only one example, but because of situations like this The EPA demands that the water supplier provide safe drinking water and they don't want the end user contaminating everyone else. That is why Backflow preventers are required, if needed, and that is why they need to be tested each year to make sure they function properly. It's good to hear from you. I think these kinds of message help us all.
People do unexplainable things on their property and don't bother to ask themselves if what their doing could be harmful in some way.
In my backflow class a plumber was telling us about a guy that bought a farm that had a pond for irrigation. The farmer got deathly sick and didn't know why. One day the farmer called a plumber to fix an underground leak. The plumber started started tracing the lines and found a cross connection by-pass on the supply line going to the pond. They found out that the previous owner was pouring chemicals in the pond to fertilize the plants and the backflow was causing the new farmer to die.
Now this is only one example, but because of situations like this The EPA demands that the water supplier provide safe drinking water and they don't want the end user contaminating everyone else. That is why Backflow preventers are required, if needed, and that is why they need to be tested each year to make sure they function properly. It's good to hear from you. I think these kinds of message help us all.
Buckles
Member
In Oregon the owner is responsible for making the assembly assessable for testing, but most of testers just pump water or dig the dirt out. I don't think I'll be doing either one of them. If the owner wants to pay me for clearing the backflow assembly, I would consider that, depending on the situation. I've had plumbers tell me they have found some units 4 feet down. (almost impossible to test).
He is nuts charging 35 bucks. I want to say here in Michigan it is a 100 for residential and more for commercial. I was certified back in the 90's. It was part of completing my apprenticeship at the Union. I never used it and did not renew back in the early 2000's. I have a buddy that does a lot of testing through his plumbing company. I believe commercial is yearly and homes are every other. he does a ton of fire systems and says the money is in the repair.
Buckles
Member
Thank you for your input. CT18
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
I surely understand. One of the great things about the USA as opposed to so many other parts of the world, is that with a few exceptions not withstanding, you can turn on the tap here and drink the water. We take it for granted.
Believe me, as a home inspector, I'm all about safety. My job is pointing out things that aren't safe, among other things. My issue with the whole back flow testing at my car wash, was the only way I could back flow into the city water system was with a perfect storm: there would have to be a massive failure of the city water system AND power grid such that a vacuum pulling water into the system existed, simultaneous to that, a cross connection would need to exist, pulling "chemicals" (um, detergent, actually) past a bunch of failed check valves, failed vacuum breakers (yes these were on each detergent mix tank) and into the RPZ. Both sections of the RPZ would have had to fail in a way they were not designed to fail. So since all of those things happening at the same time was essentially zero, spending $200 a year for testing seemed to be overkill. How about every 2nd or third year? With only 20+ inspectors or so serving the 17th largest county in the country, over 670 square miles, it wasn't easy to get someone in to test. If it was so important, why didn't the county have its own inspectors instead of creating a monopoly for those so licensed? Unlike a residence where they basically cannot shut off the water, they could shut off to a commercial operation. Couldn't avoid it.
The alarmists like to highlight the rare and random situation such as your farmer story. The car wash industry has its own story of a failed system. But for every failure like that used in a classroom as an example, there's a million+ that pass with no problem.
Don’t ever think building codes are not influenced by money.
Hey guys, let’s make some work for the industry ! Let’s require AB&C
For the right money you could get New York City to allow PVC.
Hey guys, let’s make some work for the industry ! Let’s require AB&C
For the right money you could get New York City to allow PVC.
Mitchell-DIY-Guy
Well-Known Member
RIGHT! When I moved here I was surprised that no roofer uses drip edge. Say what? I asked the builder about it and their answer is "we build to code".
Well, drip edge (about the least costly item in a roof job, maybe $60/home) WAS required once until the "building lobby" had it removed from the residential code here in NC. Still required on commercial, but not residential.
Ignore for a moment the fact that every roofing manufacturer recommends it, and some demand it for warranty. Too bad. Not a code requirement.
NYC is a whole different animal. Like Chicago with no NM wiring allowed. Metal conduit. THHN wire pulled...
Such nonsense.
Well, drip edge (about the least costly item in a roof job, maybe $60/home) WAS required once until the "building lobby" had it removed from the residential code here in NC. Still required on commercial, but not residential.
Ignore for a moment the fact that every roofing manufacturer recommends it, and some demand it for warranty. Too bad. Not a code requirement.
NYC is a whole different animal. Like Chicago with no NM wiring allowed. Metal conduit. THHN wire pulled...
Such nonsense.
Buckles
Member
Twowaxhack, pertaining to water regulations, I would have to say that it's your city or county Ordinance that dictates what, how, and when you are required to have your backflow systems checked. All of these issue can be addressed at the Governments monthly meeting, but you had better not go alone. It's a waste of time. As for the roofing drip edge and any other building issue, don't you thing your state is required to follow a Uniform Building Code or some other building code, rather than just do what they want. And, Mitchel Guy, I think your right. It's always about money when the Government is involved.
Get ready for the stainless steel assemblies. They plan on going lead free units in Oregon.
Get ready for the stainless steel assemblies. They plan on going lead free units in Oregon.
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I didn’t post anything about drip edge or roofing.
I’m not really concerned with backflow testing, it’s not required here for residential and I don’t do commercial.
Yeah those ordinances are called plumbing code.
I'll just add one more thing, when i was testing for a private co, it was about 30 years ago, the co it worked for got 100 bucks a test i got 10 of that, i used to get 20 tests done by noon time then i could go home, that's the magic#
I work with the city of Boston ,as long as he gets 20 or so done a day thats what the city wants, they are getting 120 a test twice a year
And the testers get an hourly wage over 40.00 an hour, no plumbing experience,they can't repair or replace because it's a plumbing fixture
I work with the city of Boston ,as long as he gets 20 or so done a day thats what the city wants, they are getting 120 a test twice a year
And the testers get an hourly wage over 40.00 an hour, no plumbing experience,they can't repair or replace because it's a plumbing fixture
Buckles
Member
My apologies Twowaxhack, I got you mixed up with Mitchel. My guess is that every state, city or county has different rules when it comes to water.
In Oregon, the Oregon heath authority dictates the consumption of clean and safe drinking water and each community that has 300 residents or more, must implement a cross connection ordinance which provides details as how to manage the distribution of safe and clean drinking water.
Also, it's complicated when it pertains to certified testers. Plumbers can install, but can't test unless they are certified by the state. Certified testers can test if they are an employee without a contractors license, but cannot repair. A certified tester that is licensed by the landscape contractors board is qualified to test, repair and replace. A certified tester that is self employed must have a contractors license to test, but he can't repair or replace if he doesn't have a landscapers license. Now you talk about regulations and complications, we have them. I was also told by my instructor that most of the testers repair the assemblies anyway even if they're not certified to do so.
It looks like this backflow business is not what it should be. Some states don't even require backflow prevention. Maybe it's over hyped, I don't know, but one thing I'm sure of, every time the government starts a new program , it cost us more money and more problems. I sometimes think they do it to charge us an application fee. What ever happened to The Right To Work? We have a right as long as you PAY for that right.
In Oregon, the Oregon heath authority dictates the consumption of clean and safe drinking water and each community that has 300 residents or more, must implement a cross connection ordinance which provides details as how to manage the distribution of safe and clean drinking water.
Also, it's complicated when it pertains to certified testers. Plumbers can install, but can't test unless they are certified by the state. Certified testers can test if they are an employee without a contractors license, but cannot repair. A certified tester that is licensed by the landscape contractors board is qualified to test, repair and replace. A certified tester that is self employed must have a contractors license to test, but he can't repair or replace if he doesn't have a landscapers license. Now you talk about regulations and complications, we have them. I was also told by my instructor that most of the testers repair the assemblies anyway even if they're not certified to do so.
It looks like this backflow business is not what it should be. Some states don't even require backflow prevention. Maybe it's over hyped, I don't know, but one thing I'm sure of, every time the government starts a new program , it cost us more money and more problems. I sometimes think they do it to charge us an application fee. What ever happened to The Right To Work? We have a right as long as you PAY for that right.
