Need Help with Sewer Gas Problem

[kasey]

We have a really tough problem. Had home built in 1985; we've lived here since. Have never needed a plumber since. Been on city vacuum sewer since 1985, changed to new city gravity in 2011, with oversized lift station built behind us, SE corner-700 feet or so away, manhole jutting out of our creek bank on the south side in line with garage door - about 300 feet away. It's been hell since. At first no odor control at all at the station or the manhole, they were pouring pure bleach into the manhole in the creek as a stop gap measure. That was almost as bad as dealing with H2S. Terrible odor on property and in house. A lot of our property is low ground, flood plain. City put two odor control systems...a vapex and chemical measures at the station.--we still have problems. We bought cedar oil to diffuse, put charcoal filters on fans, insulated around doors, took fire place apart and insulated, put plastic and wood chips around garage door...odor greatly diminished but still coming in house...kept narrowing things down, we bought a gas meter and realized we have sewer gas coming in the basement where the pipe exits the wall in basement around the opening itself, can't find any problem with the pipe, and also odor, H2S?, methane? coming STRONGLY out of the plumbing exhaust on the roof. The basement itself has no running water, no plumbing fixutres, no floor drains, just piping for the house above. All fixtures in house operating properly with proper traps. Basement gets worse smell in cold and rain, every week we have the problem. Sometimes we have to have windows open when it's freezing out...or when it's raining, we had to do it when it was snowing. Often it's hard to find a window to open that won't let more smell in. At worst times, with no odor control, we've had so much sewer gas in the house many times it's made me shake, makes my thoat sore, makes me cough, has made me vomit. I've seen my husband's skin look gray and he would cough constantly. It's made us both sleepy at times. Other times just really sick feeling. We've been dealing wth this for 18 months, it's a LOT better but it still controls our life. Never even a hint of odor on the old vacuumn system. Constant problems on this new system. It's a short route on an oversized station at this point, and we were added on at last minute and after State inspection. I haven't found anything to say the road portion that connected us was ever inspected. It's about 450 feet of pipe and several manholes. A common comment on this new project by the construction team, was 'we're having to make it up as we go along." They went out of State approved specifications and moved a huge portion (600 plus feet) of force main to another property (above us between us and the school) at another level, where the approved design called for the lines to be laid in the same easement side by side. I don't know if that has anything to do with our issues. On the old vacuum system, there was a large plastic container in the ground, that acted as a water trap. That was removed and thrown across the road in 2010, it is still there. Now we are connected directly to the gravity line. We are the only house on this side of the station, a large high school is next to us on the opposite side, and all the other homes connected are beyond the school. We've reached the end of knowing what to do. We have a three year old grandchild and another one the way. We are trying to protect our family from this odor. Is this forum a good place to find help with this? Please help if you can. Thanks, Kasey

 

[johnjh2o]

Sewer gas can be very harmful which I'm sure you know. Do you know if the order is coming through your system or from the outside air? If it's coming from your system a house trap may help. From the way you describe it sounds like the lift station is being vented through your system.

 

[kasey]

Thanks John, for the reply. In the last few days we've come to suspect as you do, that our house is acting as a vent. We had never even heard of such a thing until we found the problem and started looking on the internet. We've had rain today and the basement has odor again. I held the gas meter to the opening of the exit pipe just a little while ago and at one point along the opening it sounds the highest alarm. So we've got the house open again. Fans running. This is a constant problem, it is exhausting, it is highly stressful, and yes, we realize the danger of the gas, but thanks for the concern. We have often left home when the problem comes and our granddaughter is here. Lots of times it has caught us while we were sleeping though, and then you wake up sick. We don't know what else to do but keep working the problem. The contractor who built this system has strong ties to the City. It is a tight circle and we're not in it. We've begged for help. After they put the controls on the station they would not listen to us anymore concerning the odor. Told us it was not happening, was not coming from 'them'. We need to get this verified on our own, then I hope we can get help from the State. Now that we've found this issue, what would you do in this situation? Our thinking is a plumber from another area and contacting the health department. The roof vent will set off the alarm at all times it seems, but the exit pipe only when there is rain, cold, etc. Thanks for any advice. Made a few corrections to my first post...might make more sense now. Kasey

 

[johnjh2o]

Are there any vents at the lift station? It would consist of a pipe extending from the lift station into the open air. Many of these vents are short sections of pipe with two elbows directing back towards the ground. When this type vent creates a sewer gas problem to the area the vent pipe is extended high into the air. I have seen some so high as telephone poles.

 

[kasey]

I have the asbuilts, there is a vent as you describe at the station, and also an air/vacuum release valve. There is also a force main release valve near the manhole in our creek. The odor was, I believe, very dangerous coming from these vents prior to odor control. Kids were vomiting on the greenway. Venting as you describe high into the air has been suggested and we relayed that suggestion but we got no response. The school is above us just next door, maybe 15-20 feet higher than most of our property. Venting higher might create problems for them. We are the only property with a home that is low ground though our home is built out of the flood plain; we are not as high as the school. The flood plain lies between us and the school. We're the only home on this side of the station that is hooked up. Just now I walked back to within 200 feet of the station and the odor is worse at our home than at the station. I went on the roof again just now and the odor at the roof vent set off the alarm to the highest level with no delay. Even with an expensive organic mask on I had trouble staying within four feet of the roof vent and was woozy coming down the ladder. When I came off the ladder the odor still hit me on the ground. It was hitting my husband as well as he held the ladder for me. We will do as we always do and keep our house open until we go to bed and then we have to close the basement. If we keep our windows open without the basement open, the odor will come in strongly and stay instead of moving through...we have charcoal filters on box fans to try to help some...It's a miserable, life draining situation. Thanks for this conversation. Kasey

 

[phishfood]

Something that doesn't make sense to me is the odor coming in around the pipe penetration into the basement, unless there is a break in the sewer line close to the house. Have you had a plumber camera inspect the sewer line?

As John said, a house trap may help keep the sewer gas from getting back to your house in the first place. But, if the lift station is not vented or is not vented well enough, it might just break the seal of the house trap and then you would be right back where you are.

 

[phishfood]

BTW, kasey, I am going to delete the duplicate thread in the other area of the forum. You have got the best plumbing detective we have to offer with John.

 

[kasey]

Thanks Phishfood, I did not know how to delete that one after Austin suggested I place my post here. We can't figure out why the gas is coming at the point of pipe penetration (thanks for this term) either. We've never had a single issue with sewer odor in the basement prior to the new gravity system. If the new system is back pressuring us, then maybe it exposed a slight defect that never surfaced on the old system...but we've been here for almost 30 years, I worked in the basement every day for almost 20 of those years, and I am highly sensitive to any type of gas. I never had a single problem down there. I have tested every connection in our plumbing system along the basement ceiling and found absolutely no other issues.

We have talked to several plumbers, but we've just found this issue recently. The ones I've talked to since then point me back to the city, saying it is an issue with the new system...we want to verify this before we go back to the city. At this point, this is not a friendly situation where the city is involved. They are in protective mode. They have told me so. Kasey

 

[johnjh2o]

Phish may have a good point about a broken line outside the foundation wall. From reading your post I see you have a full basement. Plus you say you're in a low area. That tells me that you must have footing drains around your foundation. I have seen and repaired many a sewer line that has cracked just outside the foundation wall due the ground settling and the pipe not being able to move where it goes through the foundation. If this has happened raw sewerage can get into your footing drains.

 

[kasey]

John, We do have a full basement, and we have footing drains. I have metered all along the outside wall at the ground where the pipe runs outside and can find no problems. The footing drain in that area has a plastic drain pipe that comes out of the ground to drain near the lower corner of the house. For the last year I've repeatedly put my face right up to every drain pipe and sewer pipe I can find around our house, they don't even smell musty. I have used the gas meter on the footing drain pipe today and nothing registers. The only problems we can find around the house are on the roof, and where the pipe exits the basement. And you have to hold the gas meter right at the edge of the openingin the block and the pipe, and it's worse in some spots around the opening than others. But if you hold the meter there, in a minute or so it will be at its highest alarm. My husband tried to silicone caulk the area a week or so ago, and the leaky spots shifted but did not go away. Thanks for your continued thinking on this.

Question: the odor at the roof vent is impossible to stay near, it is very strong. The meter we have detects combustible gases but does not register which gas or a gas level, other than the increasing light display and alarm. Would metering for H2S or other gas levels help. Is there a median amount that is normal for a roof vent, or some gauge one can go by? Kasey

 

[Zanne]

Kasey, I really hope that you get someone (either city or plumber or both) to remedy this problem. Living in sewer gas is not healthy.

If the city is giving you trouble, I would suggest contacting the Department of Health in your area (likely for a county rather than city) and telling them what you told us here. IN particular things being done post-inspection and the comments from the contractors about winging it are cause for concern. Approach it in a non-accusatory manner though, and ask the Dept of Health if they would please look into it as you have sewer gases entering your home and making you ill. Also stress that there is a school nearby and that you are concerned for the health/safety of the children.

Other measures to take should the city refuse to take you seriously: Contact the school board and let them know about the safety hazard IF the gases are still going to school grounds.

Last ditch thing would be to go to the local press with your concerns. Invite someone from a local newspaper out to smell the sewer gas and show them the gas meters and point out the proximity of the school. If local parents find out their children could possibly be affected, they may want to put some pressure on the city to do something about it.

That is all IF you prove the city is responsible and that it is still reaching the school.

 

[johnjh2o]

I can't tell you what the readings should be. At what point on the roof is the vent pipe? (neer the ridge-half way up) If this is the main source of your problem it may help to put an extension on the vent pipe. This may help to get the sewer gas to up higher into the air flow to carry it away. I have had to do this on some vent where the air currents across the roof were putting the sewer gas into the back yard.

 

[kasey]

Zanne, I'm going to call the health department tomorrow, and also a plumber I made contact with yesterday. I have been working for odor control not just for us but for the school also, so I will look out for them...thing is, when the station settled down, it did not solves all our issues here at the house. The station was a beast with odor so strong no one ever considered a roof vent issue. We've got plastic and cedar chips at the bottom of the garage door to keep odor out. Everytime we raise the door to let odor out we have to fix the chips so more won't come in. It's crazy. This has been fix one thing, find another, and another, and here we are. I will be factual, not accusatory. We are desperate for help. I am being a bit more forthcoming here, but only a hint of what I could say. This project has been more destructive to our lives than I could tell you. But what we want is the problem to be solved...we want our home safe for us and our family. Frankly, we want our lives back, and we want them back before our health is ruined. This situation we're in with the City is, I think, the stuff that movies are made of. One of those things that you think always happens somewhere else. This was hell way before the odor started. Odor is just another componet...although a really wicked one. But now that we've found this problem, we will do something and quickly. We just got the gas meter last week...I just came here because I wanted to get all the advice I could. Our next door neighbor was not hooked to the new system, he will be in the coming months during the second phase of the project. So I might see if I can go on his roof to see how much gas is coming from his house. I've got a real gut feeling the new gravity system is not working correctly and the gas is coming out of the roof not so much from our house but from the city lines. The thing that worries me about the comments like 'making it up as we go along,' is because I believe it to be true. Case in point; the 600 plus feet of force main put on a completely different property out of approved specifications, without the State knowing of the move. And the city says there are no plans, records, drawings, nothing available on the move. They wanted to answer no questions about it at all. I found that out by talking to State personel that they knew nothing of it. Thing is, after it's done, nobody cares. Well, we don't care either except that we've had sewer gas for 18 months from this new system and we need relief. Maybe the health department and a plumber will get us a bit further along.

John, we've got a 6/12 pitch roof, the sewer vent pipe is about 1/3 way up on the front by the porch. It's not real tall, maybe a foot or so. It has been in the same place since 1985. The first time we had trouble on the porch was in late 2011 when they turned the beast in the back on, worse problems after we were hooked up in January 2012. Even with the steep roof the odor seems to be coming up, over and down into the back yard. That's unless it's the station stinking up the back. At this point, I'm not sure where all the odor is coming from. You just cannot know how hard this is to live with. My throat is sore tonight. It makes me feel ill. And that with the problem being better. One day it was so bad on the deck, I got so frustrated I took my little granddaugher to city hall and sat outside the city administrator's office and read story books to her...he got ticked, said if I was going to protest I had to do it outside...it was 30 degrees out. He did not even speak to my little granddaughter, but told me he did not know where the odor was coming, said we might have black mold in the house, but that the odor was defininitely not coming from 'them'. That is the situation we are in. Thanks for listening. Thanks for everything. Kasey

 

[johnjh2o]

I hate to say it but it may be time to get a lawyer involved. The problem sure seems to be the City's. A simple smoke test will show it's coming from the lift station. It will also conform it's not the fault of your plumbing.

 

[kasey]

John, we mortgaged the house back in December to hire an attorney. The first thing our attorney said when he visited our property was 'well, I can smell it." The city attorney says he can't smell anything. We just want the issue fixed. A city wastewater tech came inside the basement once and comfirmed the odor but I doubt they would fess up to that now. And now they say they cannot enter a home. I'll check back tomorrow to see if you came up with anything during the night , and I'll keep you guys updated on what happens. Night all, bless you, and thanks again. Kasey

If you get a minute, please explain that smoke test to me. thanks. Kasey


update: I edited my post above because the internet makes it a very small world. I've read a lot this morning on the difference between vacuum sewers and gravity sewers. When we were on the vacuum system there was a plastic pit burried out near the road, looks much like an odd shaped barrel, that would fill with enough sewage and water and then open to the system to empty and close again...so now with the gravity system we have no such protectection and are open to the main lines. All of you probably know this, but I knew nothing about plumbing let alone sewer systems when all this started, and I still don't know much. The old plastic barrel pit was thrown across the road 2.5 years ago and is still there. And now I find it protected us from odor all those years...I feel like I should go and get it and make a big flower pot or something out of it. This moring I read about a person in Florida that is experienced in both gravity and vacuum systems. I am going to call him today to see if he can offer any advice. I will also call the plumber and the health department. Kasey

 

[johnjh2o]

A house trap would serve the same purpose as the plastic barrel although there would be less water making the seal. I also was doing some thinking last night. What I believe will also work is where your line enters the lift station have the line extended to the bottom of the lift station so it is below the water level. It must be low enough so that is stay's submerged even after the pump pumps it down to its lowest level. With your line full of water in the station no sewer gas would be able to enter it. The same thing is done in some septic tanks but there it is done to act as a baffle.

 

[kasey]

John, I looked on youtube and found this video on housetraps [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U38VKUTbCg[/ame] This looks like something that would really help. But it would have to go outside, underground to give us some protection from the gasses. Is outside installation what you were thinking? And would you suggest a backwater valve also? I wrote the post below before I watched the video so I'l leave it as it, just disregard any redundancy. You don't know how much I appreciate all of your time on this. Thanks so much, Kasey



John, I'm confused a bit, or either I've confused you. The new lift station I'm talking about, is about 700 feet or so, maybe less, from our house, but it's a large station, built for a huge amount of expansion both in converting at least a few hundred existing homes, plus several planned housing developments, what they are calling Town Center, plus who knows what else. Right now, the school, and about 60 or so (??) homes are on it...I know the amount of odor that builds in the lines because what we went through with no odor control was like biological warfare...I kid you not. It was serious. I learned that when you are affected by that much gas, you do not even have the capacity to call for help. Our property being the only low ground it was also impossible to get the attention we needed. So even with the control measures that are now on the station, it would seem the odor would still be in the pipes? Or would that depend where in the system the chemical measures were added? Right now, the sewage from the high school is being routed through the manhole and piping in our creekbank, down through our field, back to the station, and then around and out the forcemain that was placed on other property. While our home routes from the house to the road and down about 300 feet turning at the pipe in our field passing by but not entering the manhole in the creek to get back to the station. So if the gas is back pressuring, the gas from the sewage from the school might be what is reaching us through our roof vent. It would seem to me the other connected homes would have to be directed though our property as well. And 4.5 million in expansion is coming soon, all of it going through our field. We have to get this solved before that happens. Is the house trap you are talking about sometimes called a backwater valve? Or are they two different things. The plumber I am talking to thinks we need a backwater valve and he said the City should pay for it, but from what I'm reading there can be issues with those too. I talked to the wastewater man in Florida and I'm to call him back in a couple of hours. How did you Florida guys get so smart??? Wish you guys were here! Thanks, Kasey

 

[johnjh2o]

Down here in Florida lift stations are numerous because the land is very flat and the water table is high not allowing are the sewer line to be buried deep enough to have long pitched sewer mains. A house trap and backwater are not the same. A backwater valve is basically a check valve with medicinal parts. A house trap is the same as the traps under your sink that seals the pipe with the water it holds preventing sewer gas from entering the home through the sink. A house trap is at least the size of your main sewer line and is installed in the main line before any fixtures. They have two clean-outs on the top side of the trap in case the trap becomes plugged.

 

[kasey]

John, I talked to the wastewater expert in Florida, he's got 40 years of experience, and works with gravity and vacuum systems. He believes our
home is indeed serving as a vent for the city sewer system, and not just for the little bit (as he termed it) of sewage from our home. My voice was very raspy when I talked to him, and he said that was one of the signs of methane gas. He told me the other symptoms and we have experienced
those...He strongly believes we are venting methane. The gas we have is strong but not the rotten egg smell. He said our situation is dangerous, both from health effects and from fire. He also said we should have a smoke test done. He said to call him back and let him know what happens...he said this and he is not even from here. I could cry from the kindness.

So, you, and he seem to be on the same page. I contacted the enviornmentalist at the county health department, but had to leave a message.

I will contact the plumber next and talk to him about your suggestion of a house trap.

I'm going to leave home for a bit so I can get to feeling better. Thanks, Kasey

 

[Zanne]

Kasey, I'm sorry to hear you had to mortgage your house to get a lawyer. I hope that if you sue that you can get your legal fees paid. I'm really hoping Department of Health will come through for you. If you are becoming ill because of this, the city should absolutely have to pay any medical bills and all of the plumber fees and such because it was their screwup that caused it.

Their lawyer is either a liar or had a stuffy nose it seems. You should definitely inform the health inspector about the non-approved installation stuff because I believe the city will have to pay a fine for doing things improperly and they may be eager to collect.

Be sure to stress to them that you consider this urgent as it has impacted your health.

You may want to take a video of your gas readings inside the house as well as at the station and talk about the situation and post it on Youtube. That way it will be documented.

I know I'm not an expert on these things and I admit I'm very upset with this city of yours on your behalf. I know they don't want to fix the problem and all, but man, its not fair for them to do that to you and your family-- and its especially bad when there are school children involved.

Back in the 80s when we were getting crap from the city about not fixing our roads-- bridges had holes in them and were ready to collapse-- my father went to the local newspapers and asked them to come out and take pictures of the holes in the bridges and he gave an interview where he talked about how unsafe the roads were and that schoolchildren were bused over those bridges. The news actually lit a fire under the ass of the city to do something about it.

I can't remember if you have said or not, but have you contacted neighbors nearby to see if they are affected by the smell at all and if they would be willing to back you on getting the city to do something about the sewer situation? And I do think you should probably go to the school board or local principal to discuss the matter and warn him/her about the sewer gas situation and the danger to the children.

Nothing seems to get people up in arms like children being in danger. In this case I believe it sounds like a very real danger to them.

I've lived in a house where sewer gas was not vented properly and became very ill from it. I believe it actually contributed to my father's decline in health and ultimately to his death. So it is a serious issue.