Lower water pressure in high rise when 1/2 inch replaced with 3/4 inch risers - what should be done?

[Grim Reaper]

I live in a 10 story condominium which has serious plumbling problems due to the lining of the hot water plumbing with epoxy 10 years ago to fix and prevent pinhole leaks in the 1/2 inch copper hot water plumbing pipe risers. The epoxy has deteriorated and is breaking off and plugging the plumbing, valves, taps, fixtures, appliances, etc. The plumbers are replacing sections, sometimes the whole length of the 1/2 inch hot water risers with 3/4 inch. When this plumbing replacement first began, I raised the issue about decreased water pressure because the water pump(s) is/are not sized for 3/4 inch risers. Sure enough, the hot water pressure is lower now than it was before. Should the pump(s) be changed to more powerful ones to increase the water pressure back to what it was before? If that is the lower water pressure remedy, how should the pump capacity be calculated, and, if that isn't enough what else should be done?

 

[Geofd]

You really should bring this to your condo board now that the pipe sizes have been changed there is a lot more info that has to be known it’s possible that you may need an mech engineer to look at drawings from the original to what’s now in place

 

[Grim Reaper]

You really should bring this to your condo board now that the pipe sizes have been changed there is a lot more info that has to be known it’s possible that you may need an mech engineer to look at drawings from the original to what’s now in place

The condo board is advised by the property manager and plumber and this work, replacing plugged plumbing has been going on for over a year. I brought my concern up with the plumber but he didn’t respond to it, he ignored my question. I notice that, in addition to the water pressure being lower than bfore 1/2 inch pipe was replaced with 3/4 inch, the hot water pressure also changes, it goes down, which I suspect is when a tap or appliance that uses hot water is turned on. The condo board is not receptive to questions, it relies on the property management and is not interested in what unit owners are concerned about that relates to the common elements. I think the circulating pumps need upgrading to higher capacity but I will be discounted and ignored because I am not a plumber or property manager.

 

[Geofd]

The condo board is advised by the property manager and plumber and this work, replacing plugged plumbing has been going on for over a year. I brought my concern up with the plumber but he didn’t respond to it, he ignored my question. I notice that, in addition to the water pressure being lower than bfore 1/2 inch pipe was replaced with 3/4 inch, the hot water pressure also changes, it goes down, which I suspect is when a tap or appliance that uses hot water is turned on. The condo board is not receptive to questions, it relies on the property management and is not interested in what unit owners are concerned about that relates to the common elements. I think the circulating pumps need upgrading to higher capacity but I will be discounted and ignored because I am not a plumber or property manager.

Not sure how you go about it but you have to talk to who ever is responsible I f the plumber won’t cooperate there
Is something wrong,if the epoxy is/was breaking off and causing problems unless it al gets changed your problems will continue

 

[Grim Reaper]

Not sure how you go about it but you have to talk to who ever is responsible I f the plumber won’t cooperate there
Is something wrong,if the epoxy is/was breaking off and causing problems unless it al gets changed your problems will continue

All the epoxy treated plumbing should be replaced, the epoxy lining breaking up and plugging the plumbing is a continuous problem, but the condo board doesn’t want to do that because it would be very expensive and require a very high extraordinary expense levy on every condo owner that many don’t want to pay, the board claims that some owners can’t afford to pay it and would have o sell their units. There is a neighbouring condominium building which has the same epoxy lined plumbing problem and the board there decided to replace all the plumbing and a very high levy was required to pay for the plumbing and associated repairs to walls, etc., and no one sold their unit because of inability to pay, they must have either had the money or gotten a loan to pay. Different building, different board, different attitude, different decisions for the same problem.

 

[johnjh2o]

The wrong decision was made when using the epoxy. The lines should have all been replaced at that time.

 

[Grim Reaper]

The wrong decision was made when using the epoxy. The lines should have all been replaced at that time.

I agree but I wasn't around when that decision was made. The plumbing developed pinhole leaks and a company, NuFlow, convinced the condo board to have it line the plumbing with epoxy as a cheaper remedy than replacing all of the plumbing. NuFlow demonstrated the epoxy lining procedure to the board but the demonstration was misleading, a 10 foot length of new copper pipe, thoroughly clean inside, and oriented horizontally was used which is not the same as field conditions where the plumbing is not new and internally pristine clean and it is very long with joints, branches, fittings, and is vertically oriented. The epoxy installation was also incompetently done. There are many continuous problems including the red coloured particles and pieces of epoxy contaminating the water which contaminates and accumulates and plugs everything.

 

[Helper Dave]

I'm not sure low water pressure is your problem. I think finding a new place to live is your problem. Lol

Seriously, that's going to be a problem until they 100% repipe that whole building, and it doesn't sound like that's going to happen.

 

[Grim Reaper]

I'm not sure low water pressure is your problem. I think finding a new place to live is your problem. Lol

Seriously, that's going to be a problem until they 100% repipe that whole building, and it doesn't sound like that's going to happen.

I agree, moving is the only effective remedy to the plumbing and other problems with the condominium building I live in. I owned a house before, I, personally, did a lot of the household maintenance including plumbing, electrical (I am an electrician), appliance repairs, carpentry, etc. I didn't understand how problematic living in a condominium is before I owned a condominium unit but I do now and am looking for a house so I have control of where I live back and I can do the maintenance and ensure it is done promptly and competently. When anyone asks me about owning and/or living in a condominium I tell them not to do it if they can possibly avoid it.

 

[breplum]

So sorry for your awful situation.
We have repiped tall buildings with copper and installed pump systems along with those repipes.
I cannot speak to the relining issues.
But, upsizing or correct sizing is really fairly simple, but each layout can vary.
A plumbing engineer specs our the pump system based on all the variable elements. Modern pump systems for multi-story buildings use variable frequency drives (VFD) which as the name implies, run faster or slower as demand changes at any moment.

There is no way I can imagine that you would have lower flow or pressure from larger new copper pipes.
My guess is that there is some blockage in the current risers or your branch, causing a pinch point. No increased pressure will make it flow significantly better.
The condo association should seek remedy from the lining company first.
Secondarily, I don't think you can account for all the break-off particles and are really in a mess what to do other than replace.
As to the original source of the pinholes in copper, I would be wondering about the forensics of the cause. I would want to consider PEX if possible.

 

[Grim Reaper]

So sorry for your awful situation.
We have repiped tall buildings with copper and installed pump systems along with those repipes.
I cannot speak to the relining issues.
But, upsizing or correct sizing is really fairly simple, but each layout can vary.
A plumbing engineer specs our the pump system based on all the variable elements. Modern pump systems for multi-story buildings use variable frequency drives (VFD) which as the name implies, run faster or slower as demand changes at any moment.

There is no way I can imagine that you would have lower flow or pressure from larger new copper pipes.
My guess is that there is some blockage in the current risers or your branch, causing a pinch point. No increased pressure will make it flow significantly better.
The condo association should seek remedy from the lining company first.
Secondarily, I don't think you can account for all the break-off particles and are really in a mess what to do other than replace.
As to the original source of the pinholes in copper, I would be wondering about the forensics of the cause. I would want to consider PEX if possible.

I understand that raising the pressure is not a remedy for obstructions in the plumbing system, the lower water pressure problem is pervasive, it is system-wide, throughout the building since some of the risers were partially or completely replaced with larger diameter pipe than was originally installed. The pumps are not VFD, they are single speed, I think the increased amount of water in the system is placing a heavier load on the pumps which they were not specified to handle.

The condominium building is now 30 years old, the pinhole leaks started sometime more than 12 years ago, the epoxy lining was applied approximately 11 years ago and has been problematic since installation but the worst problem with serious epoxy breakdown started about 5 years ago and the remedy to that has been piecemeal by investigation to find the cause of the blockage then only replacing that portion of the plumbing which then causes more epoxy breakdown where the repair was done which causes the particles and pieces of epoxy to accumulate and plug the plumbing elsewhere, it is a perpetual problem, the plumbers, who work for a plumbing company, are at the condominium building so often that I have suggested the condo corporation hire a master plumber full time to do the repairs which would be cheaper than using a contractor.

Replacing all of the plumbing is the only effective remedy to this problem but, as I previously stated, the condo board is opposed to doing that. Also, because of previously disastrous problems with plastic plumbing pipe (Kitec), breakdown of PEX due to chlorine in the water, UV exposure breakdown, leaching of chemicals from plastic pipe, etc., I think copper is still the best material to use but better grade pipe with thicker wall than what was used previously (it was plumbing code compliant but should not have been used) that enabled pinhole leaks to develop.

 

[Riickk]

Condo Boards are political organizations. Like all politicians they talk, talk, talk, then kick the can down the road. Then there are the Condo-Nazis, who'll harass you, because you closed your entry door too loud, and it disturbed the piano playing of the sensitive lady, down & across the hall.
Sell, you're out of place in a Hi-Rise condo.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Condo Boards are political organizations. Like all politicians they talk, talk, talk, then kick the can down the road. Then there are the Condo-Nazis, who'll harass you, because you closed your entry door too loud, and it disturbed the piano playing of the sensitive lady, down & across the hall.
Sell, you're out of place in a Hi-Rise condo.

You are so right about living in a condominium. My wife and I were naive about what living in a condo would be like.

 

[Riickk]

IMHO, your best bet is to sell A.S.A.P. __ Before the inevitable assessment -for a nice few thousand dollars per unit- is finally announced. (Question: Is there no "sinking fund" which would cover big expenses, or has the Board, in their infinite wisdom, raided that already?)
In addition to the financial problem, the epoxy in your water simply can't be good for your health; even if you only drink & cook with bottled water.
Last, but not least, this situation ain't good for your mental health.
/

 

[frodo]

your problem is the epoxy, and you are compounding the problem by adding new pipes
the new pipes are a pathway for the epoxy bits to travel plug valves and aerators . until all the epoxy lines are gone you will continue to have problems
my suggestion is to find a lawyer, have him look at your documents to see who is responsible for this
i would also find out what brand name epoxy was used and investigate if there is a suit or has been a suit because of the epoxy.