Looking for advice on septic problems

[AndrewFH]

I am having some issues with my septic system and am hoping to find some ideas or advice here.
The system was installed in 1992. I am not certain, but believe that the system is a gravity fed, gravel lined system. We purchased the home used in the late 90’s. I am not certain if the previous owners had similar problems, but for us they started a couple of years after we bought the house.
What happened initially was that the toilet in our downstairs bathroom overflowed (this toilet is the lowest point in the system and the last point before the line enters the septic system.. We initially thought it was a clog, but after confirming that it was not we concluded that the septic tank needed to be pumped out. We had that done and things worked fine for a while.
What continues to occur is that the septic tank becomes “full” (more on what I mean later) and overflows the toilet fairly often. It has not been on a regular basis but since the first time in 1998 it happens anywhere from almost three years to just under a year apart. When it happens and we have the tank pumped out, the tank is not “full” as in too much solid waste, but rather the tank is overfilled with liquid waste, apparently because the drain field will not accept any more water. After having the tank drained, the system works fine for another year or more…until recently.
Over the course of the years, we have used various companies to do the pump out and they have all generally said there was some problem with the drain field and have recommended various things to try, some of which we have tried. For instance, one time they jetted the line. That did not really seem to have any effect.
In May of 2013 the toilet overflowed and we called to have the system pumped out. This time we were told that out drain field had a problem with “biomass’. The company recommended the use of their “oxidizer plus” to eliminate the problem. Since the tech at the time told me that the treatment was guaranteed and would be refunded if it did not work, we gave it a try. (turns out the “refund” would only be paid in the form of a credit towards the cost of a new drain field. The tech did not mention this, but it was stated in the guarantee’s fine print, which stupidly I did not read).
In late Dec. of 2013, the toilet overflowed again (this was only 7 months and the shortest time period we had ever had). We called the same company back to pump it out again. They did so and told us that we needed a new drain field. They began the process of soil testing, getting a permit, etc to be able to provide us with our options. They did not charge us for any of the testing, permits, etc.
Two days ago (1-18-14) the toilet overflowed again and the septic tank was full (of water) again. I had it pumped out and they were able to provide me with an estimate for a new drain field. It seems high and I am not sure that everything they say is needed is actually needed, but I am getting some estimates from other companies.
According to the soil test, the only area in my yard that will allow a drain field is the front yard where the current system is. One of my questions…if the drain field is no longer viable how can they install a new one in the same place? In doing some research it seems that most if not all states (and I believe Georgia where I live) require that when you get a permit for a septic system, a reserve area for a new drain field is required. This does not appear to have been done in my case.
What causes a drain field to fail? What “wears out” or is no longer usable? Is there a way to test to see if the drain field is no longer viable?
Could there be other causes of my symptoms?
I appreciate any help or advice.

 

[speedbump]

Drain fields can get plugged up with sludge if the ell on the outlet side is removed. It can get clogged with roots from trees. There are probably other things that effect them. Septic tanks are supposed to be full or almost full. Water and waste comes in one side near the top and the liquid goes out the other side up through a ninety degree elbow to keep the floaties out of the drain field. The waste goes to the bottom.

I can see where getting it pumped would help for a while, but not for a year.

Is your lower bathroom below the drain line where it has to be pumped up or does it gravity feed to the tank?

 

[AndrewFH]

The toilet in question is not pumped, it is gravity fed to the septic tank.

 

[speedbump]

Being the lowest point is why only that toilet overflows, but I can't figure why it would not do it again for 7 months or a year. It certainly wouldn't take more than a week or two to refill the septic tank.

 

[jigs-n-fixtures]

The leach field has been contaminated and clogged. The "biomass" is most probably small particles of solids that have gotten past your tank and into the leach field clogging it. Rebuilding the system in the same place may work quite well. The clogged gravels will be removed, and new material installed which will once again allow age drainage.

The most critical thing is to reconfigure the tank discharge piping to eliminate the discharge of solids into the leach field. Just fixing the tank drain might in fact solve the problem, but it might take several years for the solids that are in the leach field to decay enough to allow good drainage.


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[speedbump]

Another thing that I have seen happen is the header coming off the tank to the fields can get cocked and plugged not allowing anything to get to the fields. Wouldn't hurt to dig on that side of the tank to check.

 

[Twlzt3d]

you say they jetted the line or field? What did they do exactly and have you ever exposed the D-box (distribution box)? If you have it exposed are you changing fields by way of regulating where the waste water is dumping (switching the elbow) from one field to the other? Unfortunately this is a common issue w/ alot of old systems as we deal w/ them quite frequently, we have 1 customer that has us out to his house every 3 months or sooner sometimes. Installing a new field is quite costly but i imagine even more costlier than having it pumped every few months.

 

[Zanne]

Ugh. I can relate in having the toilet overflow. It happened to me several times before we had to have our entire tank and drain field replaced. The field line was completely stuffed up with crud because it was at too steep an angle and was too long.

Do vehicles drive over the area where the field line goes? Frequent traffic can compact the soil and make it harder to drain the liquid.

What sort of system is the company recommending?

I ended up going with Infiltrator Systems leech field chambers. You'll have to check with your local Dept of Health to find out which (if any) are allowed in your area. Before the company you contracted starts doing things, I do highly recommend that you speak to the inspector from the Dept of Health to double-check and make sure that you have the permit and that the people doing the job have the proper license to install the system-- they will need to have their license # to tell the inspector.

Generally, from my experience, you contact Dept of Health and they can give you a list of licensed contractors in your area (but they cannot recommend anyone-- however, they can let you know about people who have violated the rules). You might want to ask around to see if you can get a better price, or you might want to stick with the guys you have. Just make sure you are careful about who you pick and be sure they know what they are doing-- guys I hired were new to the business and it cost a lot more and took a LOT longer than it should have because they weren't properly prepared. The inspector had to guide them quite a bit.

Anyway, the inspector might give you a printout about field lines, the rules, etc and will tell you how much line is needed to replace your current system based on the results of the percolation test. The inspector will also need to come out on the day of the install to make sure everything is done properly (at least in my area that's how it is).

The pipe and gravel system requires longer lengths of pipe but the infiltrator system can reduce the length by about 40% (I think). I was going to need 3 or more lines with the old type but ended up just needing 2. But they are rather large.

I don't know what prices are like in your area, but I was quoted up to $4k from various people. The guys I went with originally said $2,800 but after the job was done they ended up charging about $3,400 (I tried to get them to draw up a contract but apparently that is not done in my state so I was s.o.l.)

I think I'm rambling so this might not be very helpful..

Have you replaced the wax seal on the toilet that overflowed? Sometimes if the sewage backs up it breaks the wax ring and your toilet can leak into the floor. Had that happen to the point that it rotted the floor under the linoleum. My lardo brother discovered that the hard way when the floor collapsed and the toilet fell over (with him on it).

Generally, the process will involve a backhoe digging trenches for the new lines. Before they dig they should contact the utility companies to come out and mark any underground cables, gas lines, power lines, etc. If you go with infiltrator systems they smooth out the dirt under where the chambers will go and then put the chambers in and click them together. Once they are in, they push the dirt back over them, smooth it out, and collect the money.

 

[AndrewFH]

Thanks for all the replies. I've had several different companies come out and essentially they all think I need a new drain field and have recommended essentially the same system. Specifically an Infiltrator chamber system. Because of the slope of my land I will also need a dosing tank with a pump added also.
I would appreciate some additional advise on one question. When I asked about the life expectancy of the pump in the system, one of the companies suggested that if I had them service the pump whenever the tank was pumped out, that it would greatly extend the lift of the pump. One of his stated reasons was that since an electric motor uses magnetism that all of the iron the ends up in the septic tank end up attracted to the motor and cleaning it would help. I do have some general knowledge sbout electric motors and this sounded a little suspect to me. Sounds more like they just want me to pay them for an extra service periodically.
When I asked the other companies the same question, they all said there really wasn't anything to service (unless of course something failed) on the electric motor that would extend it's life expectancy.
Can anyone comment on this? Can the lifespan of the pump be extended by regular service?

 

[speedbump]

Run, run very fast from that guy! What a line of poop. I am in the motor business and would love to have had that guy tell me that whopper.

Is it the County making you put in the berm and pump? You know that your yard in the area of the drain fields is going to be raised about 3', right?

I don't know what engineer thought that one up, but he needs to be in jail. Those raised beds are a joke.

An average life of an effluent pump is 3 to 5 years. A lot less if you go big box.

 

[Zanne]

Andrew, I don't know anything about the electric motors/pumps. I opted to not get a mechanical system because I'd heard they have a higher rate of failure and more things can go wrong. Additionally, I have frequent power outages and I would not want to have my system fail because of lack of electricity.

One thing I can say is make sure whoever does your install does elevation tests BEFORE they come out on the day of install. Mine didn't and it there was a lot of trouble on the day of the install that caused a several hour delay as they tried to figure out what to do. They opted to not try to change the landscaping and decided to run the lines perpendicular to the old ones-- unfortunately it went right through a water line (I had warned them it was there but didn't know the exact location-- so now I no longer have water out to that faucet). I didn't have the best of luck on things.

I'm hoping that you will have better luck.

 

[dpotesta]

We're having a very similar problem here. Our septic was emptied about two years ago. We recently replaced both toilets in the house. For the past couple of months, sometimes when the washing machine empties, water comes back up in the laundry room (there is a drain in the middle of the floor in case something leaks IN the laundry room). In the past year I've had a rooter service come out and unclog the system. I even had them snake a camera through the line, nothing wrong with the pipes. Now, when somebody is showering or flushes I toilet, you can hear a sort of gurgling/bubbling sound coming from the drain in the laundry. I've been told there should be a pipe that feeds the lines air for pressure but I don't see anything like that so I'm assuming gravity does all the work.
Could the changing of the two toilets have done something to throw off the pressure, do I need to get the septic emptied again or, like mentioned above, do my leech lines need to be cleaned (An expensive fix I was told from the guys who emptied my septic).

 

[Zanne]

dpotesta, there are a few causes for the problem you are having.
1. Clogged drain (which you've already had cleared out)
2. Broken pipe with roots growing in it (similar to clogged drain). Since you had a camera put down, it is likely not the issue.
3. Improper venting- there should be a pipe to take the air up either out through the roof or along the side of the house (but extending several inches above the roof).
4. Clogged field line.
5. Insufficient size septic tank
6. Not enough water going down with the toilet paper when flushed
7. Type of toilet paper and such being flushed not degrading properly.

Flushable wipes are not flushable with a septic tank. Certain types of toilet paper do not deteriorate enough and clog things up.
If you changed from regular flow toilets to low flow toilets, you might not be getting enough pressure/water behind the waste to flush it down. If you have dual flush, make sure the lever is held down long enough to use more water to flush it down.

I'm sure the plumbers here have other ideas and possibly corrections if I'm wrong.

 

[phishfood]

Operating just on what information you have shared, it sounds as though the field is not taking water fast enough. This could be caused by a couple of things, the simplest and cheapest to fix would be a clogged outlet filter, root or dirt intrusion into the distribution box, or the field is going bad.

Sometimes a field can be brought back by cleaning it with a pressure jetter, sometimes it will need to be replaced.

But before I would make such recommendations to a customer, I would do some indepth diagnostic work.