Float lever sticking & power to jet pump problem

[Zanne]

I have absolutely no idea. The cover is on. Usually if I tug on the wire a bit the pump will kick on. I suppose I should put pressure in the pressure tank bc it doesn't hold pressure. Will have to see if that might work, but if the pump isn't kicking on it is unlikely. It normally short-cycles if the pressure tank is the issue. I don't even know what the "points" are on the switch.

I do have a replacement switch at least. I'm planning to get some things streamlined a bit-- add some conduit, use 10awg wago lever nuts for some of the connections (with electrical tape holding the levers closed just in case).

I want to add a disconnect (need to figure out what kind is needed). Looks like home depot only has 30amp and 60amp ones and I think my pumps would need something like 20amp max. Would it hurt to use a 60amp one? I only ask because the 60amp is the cheapest and they are in stock at my nearest HD.

Would something like this work?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Halex-60-Amp-Non-Fusible-Metallic-AC-Disconnect-HNF60R/205785642

Anyway, I went to take pics inside the pump house and bumped something. Jet pump started buzzing but didn't pump. Shut off after a few seconds and I couldn't get it to do it again.


I want to replace the galvanized pipe coming from the top of the pump with a 1" stainless steel pipe (not sure on the height) then go to 1" PEX that can go to a shutoff before going to a tee that goes in to the pressure tank. Might reduce to 3/4" since the tee for the pressure tank can have a 1" female coupling or a 3/4" male coupling attached. I'll want the new pressure tank a little bit higher off the ground. I have cinderblocks that can be used for that (as you can see).
View attachment pumphouse5-21-2024.mp4
Aminatu wanted attention so she was talking to me.

 

[Valveman]

I think the wire that goes up from the pressure switch to the cistern is connected to a float switch in the cistern that will not let the pump pressure switch have power if the cistern is low. Just disconnect the float switch and see if everything else works. If you are replacing the tank and fittings on the pump it is a good time to upgrade to a PK1A kit that comes with a 4.5 gallon tank that would mount on the wall as high as you want.

 

[Zanne]

The pump is wired through that switch, but it still runs even if the cistern is low or empty.
My friend came to check things out and the pump was seized up and overheated. Turned the breaker off for now and ordered a new pump. Unfortunately, fastest it can get here is eta May 30.

Going to take the opportunity to clean up stuff inside, install a sub panel with breakers for each pump and for a gfci outlet in case we need to plug stuff in.

Trying to find a wet rated solar powered ceiling light that isn't expensive to put in there. If we take the extra wires off the float switch we should be able to fit a cover on.

Going to add conduit for the wires and use wago lever nuts + electrical tape for some of the connections. I have ones that work with 10awg wire.

Also planning to streamline the plumbing inside a little bit and adding a proper tee with stuff on it for the pressure tank.

Apparently I forgot to hit "post reply" on this.

Adding more info on ideas:


Note to self: Get voltage detector to check every cable after turning power back on in shed. Remove dead cables.

Will stack cinderblocks and paving stones to raise up pump and pressure tank. The outlet pipe on the new pump will come up several inches and instead of a tee there will be an elbow.

I'm reading that it is ok to use male threaded pvc inside female threaded metal but not plastic female to metal male. I think my check valve may have plastic female over metal male but I really need to go take a better look at it. I've been reading that the check valve causes the pumps to run hotter, so I think I will remove that check valve and put in a plastic check valve on the outlet side instead. Then I can put a shutoff where the current check valve is.

I'm thinking this one might be decent: https://www.lowes.com/pd/RELIABILT-PVC-Sch-40-1-in-PVC-Spring-Loaded-Check-Valve/5014537023
Or https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-in-FIP-x-FIP-PVC-Threaded-Check-Valve-101-105HN/100159069

The threaded version seems to have better reviews. But I will likely have to use some solvent weld adapters, which is fine with me.
Edit, it costs more but I found an SS check valve specifically for well pumps. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A7QDDJQ/
Would eliminate the need for solvent weld adapters.

 

[speedbump]

Putting a shutoff valve between the pump and tank is a bad idea. You have two for some reason.

 

[Zanne]

Why is it a bad idea to put a shutoff between the pump and tank?

 

[Valveman]

Why is it a bad idea to put a shutoff between the pump and tank?

Because somebody might shut it and burn up the pump. But it is more common on cistern systems so you can work on the pump without draining the tank. Just take the handle off and hide it from everyone else.

Check valve on the suction is best, and plastic check valves suck. Check valves do not cause the pump to get hot. Only loss of flow or cycling on and off makes the pump/motor get hot.

Wouldn't be waiting a week for a pump. Should be able to find one somewhere. Can even use a submersible, which I like best, and they are usually available.

 

[Zanne]

Ah. OK.
Since I'm the only one who ever messes with the pump, I would never close the shutoff while the pump is still on. When there was a shutoff before the pump, I always flipped the breaker off, because the only reason to shut it off at that point was because of a pipe break or leak or something wrong with the pump that required disconnecting it from the pipes and I didn't want water pouring out of the cistern.

I used shutoffs instead of couplings in a few spots because I was out of couplings. In my newly proposed setup I added a shutoff between cistern and pump for aforementioned reasons.

Decided to NOT go with a plastic check valve and have already ordered a metal one, but it will be on outlet side. That will keep stuff from backflowing in to the pump at least. No shutoff between pump and pressure tank this time. I'll re-use one of the shutoffs that I used as a coupling on the other side of the pressure tank. Will keep the other shutoff as a backup.

I took a photo of the coupling disaster coming out of the cistern, removed the background, and spliced it in to my diagram. It is 1-1/4" coming out and immediately reduces to 1" and then back up to 1-1/4" but I can't get rid of that without climbing in the tank and there is no way my fat behind is getting in there. I can't even get the lid to lift more than a couple of inches. I have no idea how the professional dude got in there. I'd wanted a foot valve in there. Eventually, if I can get him to come back I'd have him install the foot valve and give a tip on top of the fee. Unfortunately, I haven't heard from him in a long time and he never returns calls anymore. The black lines just represent where there's pvc pipe.


There are no local places that sell good pumps.
I already feel I'm making significant changes for now and don't want to change much.
Currently debating how to deal with the pipes on outlet side of the pump. They didn't have any stainless steel longer than 4" and I've read you need at least 10" between the pump and plastic to reduce chance of vibrations causing problems.
OPTION 1 (two SS pipes connected with a coupling before a street elbow with the SS pump rated check valve)

OPTION 2 (one of the 4" pipes coming up to a 90 then having another 4" piece with the check valve attached to that one)

OPTION 3 (4" pipe coming up to street elbow with check valve connected and other 4" pipe after that followed by a coupling before it goes to PEX)

I'm also debating whether or not to have a coupling or a union on the inlet side

As noted: The shutoff will ONLY be used when power to the pump is off to keep water from pouring out of the cistern while working on the pump or pressure tank.

For the full convoluted picture (showing option 2-- which is the one I'm leaning toward but will decide once we start assembling stuff)


Worst case on the sharkbites, I can use waterproof gorilla tape. But I've never had problems with those before. The last tee on the bottom right is one we already have.

Why all of those particular fittings? Because I already have them. LOL. Absolute worst case with the sharkbites, I can remove them and use the cinch rings and more adapters, but I'd prefer to not have to use the extra pex to pvc adapters. I suppose I could also do the pex barb to push connect-- if I can find one. I know I can find the push fit ones.

I had total brain freeze just now.

 

[Valveman]

Yu want water to flow back from the pressure tank to the pump if needed, to keep the pump primed. Also better for a pump to start against pressure than not. This means check valve should always be on the inlet side of the pump. Also unions on the suction line are a good place for a suction leak. The PK1A kit would work much better, take up less space, and comes with all the SS fittings needed except the 1X4 SS nipple.

 

[Zanne]

Hmm.. Would it be bad to put the 1" check valve after the pressure tank and have it connect directly to the tank tee's outlet side?

I may see if I can keep the existing check valve on inlet side and still add a shutoff after it. I do have a solvent weld 1-1/4" shutoff that can be put in. The diagrams for Goulds pumps in a pdf showed a gate valve between the pump and the pressure tank. I don't like gate valves though.

The diagram is showing a shutoff before the check valve. I think it may also be showing a union on the outlet side but I'm not sure. If it is Ok to have a check valve after the pressure tank, I'd like to do that in case any dirty water gets into the pipes from a break. I don't want dirt backwashing into the pressure tank.

I'm still reading stuff that says its ok to have a check valve between the pump and pressure tank. But that too many check valves can be a problem. I wanted to have a foot valve but the repair guy wouldn't put one in.

 

[RS]

Normally you should never have a shutoff valve between the pump and pressure tank/pressure control switch, but our current well system is an exception. our well is an artesian, or flowing well, depending on your local dialect, and it has 12 foot + head. So, there is a valve between the pump (submersible) and pressure tank, for doing maintenance. The installer had the foresight to remove the handle, so a person without knowledge of well systems couldn't turn it off. About 10 years ago I changed the pressure tank, and I shut the valve. Without the valve once I disconnected the line I would have had 10 gpm running into my crawl space, until I got a cap screwed onto the line. but, I don't imagine there are too many systems like mine, and this is why a person with no knowledge of well systems shouldn't be working on them, I have been for 50 years.

 

[Valveman]

The diagram I posted is from 55 years of experience solving problems caused by installing pumps from diagrams like those made by pump engineers.

 

[Zanne]

Yeah, if there were other people out here who would close the shutoff while the pump is still on, I'd consider it a danger/problem. But since I only live with 2 other people and one can't even get into the shed and the other won't go out there or mess with stuff, then I know it is safe. Not really worried about what some other people might do years down the line. Chances are if someone else is living in this house then I won't be alive anymore.

I took some photos inside the pump house today.
I forgot that Dad put some wood up against the metal so he could attach stuff. Going to pull out all of the cables that aren't actively being used. The cables we keep will be in watertight conduit. Eventually I'd really like to re-build the shed. The width from north to south is fine, but I want to elongate it from east to west. Add some storage for repair fittings and such. Have it sealed up and insulated better, add a gable fan to circulate outside air, have working doors. The electrical comes out from a pipe on the west side (near the doors) and I will run conduit up to the beam and then run conduit along the ridges and around the close beam and to the north wall. (the door is to the west). Conduit will also be run back from the sub panel to the float switch. From the float switch it will run to the pressure switch that will be on the tank tee for the new pressure tank.



I definitely need to clean this mess up.

This is the wall where the sub panel will go. I need to figure out how to attach it securely. The walls are flimsy.

Ceiling

Here you can see the view from the doorway-- the pipe coming out of the ground with electrical. An extension switch to who knows what. Non-GFI outlets... You can probably see I propped open the lid of the cistern to run some tubing to siphon water out to fill buckets.

 

[Zanne]

I managed to find a stainless steel boiler drain with 1/2" male threaded inlet and 3/4" outlet so a hose can be attached. That will go in place of a plug on the tank tee. That way I can drain the tank using a hose in the future if need be.

 

[speedbump]

Bladder tanks with good bladders don't need to be drained. They are self draining when the pressure is lowered.

 

[Zanne]

I think they said to use it when draining it for priming the jet pump. It was mentioned as a step to do when replacing the pump. But, I figure better safe than sorry and having one just in case should be OK.

Friend is taking off work tomorrow to come out early and work on stuff. Going to try to get electrical sorted first and then plumbing.

I got the liquidtite flexible conduit in 3/4" and the couplings/connectors for it are 3/4" but I believe the switches take 1/2" conduit. Not sure how to bridge that. But I did get the 10/2wg rated for outdoors.

 

[Zanne]

We spent a few hours working on stuff today. I'd been tired and power came back on so late yesterday that I didn't really organize stuff well. My bins spilled and I misplaced some things. It was way too hot to keep working in the hot metal shed and it was my friend's daughter's birthday so I told him to go cool off and spend some time with her. Told him to get rest tomorrow and we will resume Monday. He needs to rest. Plus I need time to organize my stuff and go back to the store for anything that is missing. Hopefully I'll be able to get things sorted and labeled and can check to see if things fit.
Used pressure treated 2x4s to secure the new sub panel to the wall. I measured and cut them myself.

Repurposed some cinderblocks, paving stones, & a broken anti-fatigue mat to raise up the new pressure tank and jet pump.

Nixed the idea of the switch being on the tank tee because the wires coming out of the jet pump to the switch were so short so we kept it on the pump. It came with the pressure switch already attached.

I need to pick up a fitting to connect from the 1" outlet pipes to go from PVC to PEX. Still needo run some PEX from the outlet side of the pressure tank to connect it to the main water. Might have to make some adjustments to add a shutoff just for the house and not for all of the pipes. But that could be added in at a later date if need be. We will be adding a shutoff before the PVC tee. Still trying to figure out the best way to run the pipes on the outlet side of the jet pump over to the pressure tank. I do want to use PEX for some of it to allow more flexibility.

We also need to finish up the electrical. But we made some good progress today. Got all the old cables out of the way-- I'll have to get a picture tomorrow.

 

[Zanne]

Got more stuff updated. It's still a twisty mess, but it's better than it was before. I had the wrong type of sharkbites so I couldn't do the 1" PVC, but that's OK. My friend got the PVC to fit. It's tight, but I can get a hose on the spigot on the pressure tank in a worst case scenario.

Ran out of conduit and 10/2wg cable. It was sealed in packaging that said it was 50' but it didn't feel like 50' and I wonder if it was actually less and they lied on the packaging. It feels like we should have gotten more runs out of 50'.

The smurf tubing that brought power into the shed has been connected to a weatherproof junction box inside the hole of a cinderblock. I had enough of the 10 to get the pumps and switches hooked up at least. I only need 12/2wg for the 20amp run that will have a 15A GFI outlet in a weatherproof box with an LED shop light that uses 13w when on. Another 15A GFI outlet will be added in a similar box a few feet away so we can plug in fans, a heater, or a shopvac or something.

I'm hoping to add more conduit and find a way to connect the 3/4" conduit to the 1/2" openings on the switches. I think I have found the fittings to make that happen though.
This was taken before the wiring for pumps was run.

We decided to run the pex vertically so it wouldn't get in the way as much as it would if we'd run it horizontally. It also made it a bit easier to secure it.

I used rigid conduit elbow to bend the 3/4" PEX and friend chose to leave it on to help it hold shape a bit better.


I need to get more pictures with the electrical run, the old cables removed, and the lid of the cistern uncovered.

The pipe coming out of the cistern was leaking like crazy and we couldn't get the lid moved enough for one of us to get into the cistern to mess with the screw on fitting inside. That is something we will have to address later on if it gets worse. Told my friend to hit it with Flex Shot spray and it worked to reduce the leaking enough that the cistern could fill. It's obviously not a perfect solution, but its better than nothing.

First thing I did was go flush the toilets. Still need to clean them but my arthritis is acting up in my hands.

 

[Ludington]

Curious, did you get a permit for all this electrical / plumbing rework ?
Or are you in the "Permit , Permit" I don't need no stinkin permit....
Or Permit, what's a Permit?

 

[Zanne]

I plead the 5th! LOL. TBH, no permits were ever pulled on this house to begin with-- it never would have passed inspection for electrical, plumbing, structure, etc if it had. Parents had to get a private loan to buy the place. Oh wait! I did get a permit for replacing the septic tank! The inspector who came out for that told me I don't need permits for renovations.

Friend is a certified electrician and adds sub-panels, and does this kind of work on his own house and at work. We are basically trying to fix up really badly done electrical. And I don't think a permit would be needed to try to fix some pipes. Don't know though and I'm outside city limits and nobody is coming out here to look. I can't even get the official plumbers and electricians to come out here anymore. So, it was DIY or not having running water. The current setup is far superior to the old one with all the wrong type of wires-- I had 8awg going to one pump, 12awg going to outlets, 10awg to switches. It wasn't the outdoor rated wiring, there was no conduit-- it was a hot mess.

For some reason the word permit made me think of kermit. kermit the frog. LOL.

I need to go check things in the shed. Water stopped working a few minutes into my shower. Toilets still flush, sink still runs and a few minutes later water came out of the tub spout. But I'll resume the shower later. Got rinsed off enough that I'm not feeling or smelling icky. If it doesn't work later I'll take it apart and see if I can clean the cartridges.

Need to make sure its all working properly before I try to do laundry.

Right now I'm trying to find a switch solution for the plug-in LED light. The old light had one of those cords with a rocker switch that dangled down. I want something like that but that ends in a plug that has an outlet on its side so I can plug the light in while inside the weatherproof box.

 

[Zanne]

Surprise! I cleaned the junk off the top of the cistern lid.

It's a bit difficult to get over to where the pipe comes out of the cistern now. There's a slow leak there-- was a bigger leak before but patched with Flex Shot (which also worked on a hole in the roof directly above the liquid level switch). I would love to replace this eventually but would have to be able to remove or move the lid enough to get into the cistern-- and that pipe going into the top doesn't want to come off. Not sure how the repair guy got in. It probably has too much PSI to put in a pressure fitting/union or removable coupling. I need to clean up the trash-- old covers and stuff.


I really need to build a wooden shed around the existing shed, extend it out a bit further, put a better roof over the top, cut out the rusted junk, get some storage for repair parts, insulate, and get some working doors on this shed.