I'm not a pump man but I have looked at your csv and it appears to be nothing more then a pressure reducing valve.
John
John
CSV verses PRV or VFD
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John, I didnt mention a CSV on the Water Cannon thread. I was trying to show how to make a good water cannon using linear flow.
But since you mentioned it, I will explain the difference between a CSV and a Pressure Reducing Valve or PRV. A PRV is a fully closing valve that will deadhead and burn up your pump is just a couple of minutes. If you drill a hole through the seat of a PRV, you can make what my so-called competitors claim is just like a CSV. However, the drilled hole needs to be less than 1/16th of an inch to produce a minimum flow of 1 GPM. A hole that small will quickly clog with mineral deposits, the same way the holes in your shower head clog. Water jetting through any size hole will cause the minerals to precipitate out and clog the hole. When the hole clogs, your pump will be destroyed from a lack of cooling flow in just a couple of minutes. To slow down the time it takes to clog the hole, my so-called competitors will drill a 1/8 or larger hole. Now you have about a 3 GPM minimum through the PRV, which will cause the pump to cycle on and off when running a 2.5 GPM shower or a sprinkler. Plus the pressure tank needs to be three times as large for a 3 GPM minimum as it does when you have a 1 GPM minimum.
In 1992 we tried for several months to figure out a way to keep a hole from clogging. We tried different sizes, shapes, and placements of the hole to no avail. We tried screens, filters, and even wipers and spinning wires in the holes to try to keep it from clogging. No matter what you do a drilled hole will always clog. Then we discovered the trick that makes the CSV dependable. We made a half moon shape notch on the moving part of the valve and another on the seat. When the valve closes, the two half moons come together to form a small hole that produces the 1 GPM minimum we needed. Since the valve is pressure operated, anytime something clogs the small bypass, the valve opens, splitting the hole apart, and allowing the debris to flush away.
We also experimented with round notches, square notches, multiple notches, and different placements for the notch. The notch not only solved the problem of clogging the bypass, but also eliminated water hammer and pressure spikes that happen when you close or open a valve against pressure. To try and prevent pressure spikes, a PRV is made to open and close slowly. Slowing the valves speed causes even more problems when the flow rate changes in the field, and the pump control valve cannot function as fast as needed.
It was a real eureka moment when we finally figured it out. The CSV cannot clog, and we were able to increase the valve travel speed many times faster than a PRV. Over the years we have had hundreds of thousands of installations to test and prove the CSV itself has no fatal flaws. It really does makes pumps last longer, use smaller pressure tanks, eliminates water hammer, pressure spikes, and most other problems associated with pump systems.
This makes the CSV just as disruptive to the pump industry as the automobile was to the horse and buggy industry. So you have several groups trying to discredit the CSV for different reasons. Pump manufacturers, suppliers, and related businesses try to discredit the CSV to keep homeowners pumps from lasting longer than the expected, and designed fail date. Notice that NO pump manufacturer promotes the CSV, and many lie about it being bad for your pump. Pump manufacturers promote big pressure tanks, Variable Speed Pumps or VFDs, and tankless widgets with flow switches and flashing lights that shorten the life of your pump, to get as much of your money as they can. You dont really expect the horse and buggy manufacturers to say anything good about the automobile do you?
Most pump installers are good people, but very naïve. They still try to do the best job possible for their customers, and dont believe their manufacturers would outright lie to them about their products. Yeah right! I hear from installers everyday who have found out the hard way, how much pump and tank manufacturers really care about them. ZERO!
Then there are engineers who have a home pump system, and people who install a few dozen pumps a year, that think they know more about it than others with hundreds of thousands of installations under their belt. They will gang together on chat rooms and forums and tell people the CSV is snake oil, because they have no idea what they are talking about.
I get falsely accused of not really wanting to help homeowners, because everything I post anywhere is about the CSV. That is because decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of installations have proven to me that cycling is the number one cause of most pump system problems. Everything from a burned motor to wire chaffing is caused by cycling. Noise or split fittings from water hammer, pumps coming unscrewed, tank bladders bursting, pressure switch points burned, check valves failing, sediment in the water, fluctuating pressure, low pressure, and many other problems can be attributed to cycling. When you stop the pump from cycling on and off, 99% of your problems go away. That is why the CSV is so disruptive to the industry, and why so many people will try to dissuade you from using one.
Sorry for the long post. The CSV is a very simple product with a long and complicated explanation. It doesnt help when others try to further complicate the issue with their lack of understanding, or outright deliberate attempts to keep the homeowner from extending the life of their pump system.
But since you mentioned it, I will explain the difference between a CSV and a Pressure Reducing Valve or PRV. A PRV is a fully closing valve that will deadhead and burn up your pump is just a couple of minutes. If you drill a hole through the seat of a PRV, you can make what my so-called competitors claim is just like a CSV. However, the drilled hole needs to be less than 1/16th of an inch to produce a minimum flow of 1 GPM. A hole that small will quickly clog with mineral deposits, the same way the holes in your shower head clog. Water jetting through any size hole will cause the minerals to precipitate out and clog the hole. When the hole clogs, your pump will be destroyed from a lack of cooling flow in just a couple of minutes. To slow down the time it takes to clog the hole, my so-called competitors will drill a 1/8 or larger hole. Now you have about a 3 GPM minimum through the PRV, which will cause the pump to cycle on and off when running a 2.5 GPM shower or a sprinkler. Plus the pressure tank needs to be three times as large for a 3 GPM minimum as it does when you have a 1 GPM minimum.
In 1992 we tried for several months to figure out a way to keep a hole from clogging. We tried different sizes, shapes, and placements of the hole to no avail. We tried screens, filters, and even wipers and spinning wires in the holes to try to keep it from clogging. No matter what you do a drilled hole will always clog. Then we discovered the trick that makes the CSV dependable. We made a half moon shape notch on the moving part of the valve and another on the seat. When the valve closes, the two half moons come together to form a small hole that produces the 1 GPM minimum we needed. Since the valve is pressure operated, anytime something clogs the small bypass, the valve opens, splitting the hole apart, and allowing the debris to flush away.
We also experimented with round notches, square notches, multiple notches, and different placements for the notch. The notch not only solved the problem of clogging the bypass, but also eliminated water hammer and pressure spikes that happen when you close or open a valve against pressure. To try and prevent pressure spikes, a PRV is made to open and close slowly. Slowing the valves speed causes even more problems when the flow rate changes in the field, and the pump control valve cannot function as fast as needed.
It was a real eureka moment when we finally figured it out. The CSV cannot clog, and we were able to increase the valve travel speed many times faster than a PRV. Over the years we have had hundreds of thousands of installations to test and prove the CSV itself has no fatal flaws. It really does makes pumps last longer, use smaller pressure tanks, eliminates water hammer, pressure spikes, and most other problems associated with pump systems.
This makes the CSV just as disruptive to the pump industry as the automobile was to the horse and buggy industry. So you have several groups trying to discredit the CSV for different reasons. Pump manufacturers, suppliers, and related businesses try to discredit the CSV to keep homeowners pumps from lasting longer than the expected, and designed fail date. Notice that NO pump manufacturer promotes the CSV, and many lie about it being bad for your pump. Pump manufacturers promote big pressure tanks, Variable Speed Pumps or VFDs, and tankless widgets with flow switches and flashing lights that shorten the life of your pump, to get as much of your money as they can. You dont really expect the horse and buggy manufacturers to say anything good about the automobile do you?
Most pump installers are good people, but very naïve. They still try to do the best job possible for their customers, and dont believe their manufacturers would outright lie to them about their products. Yeah right! I hear from installers everyday who have found out the hard way, how much pump and tank manufacturers really care about them. ZERO!
Then there are engineers who have a home pump system, and people who install a few dozen pumps a year, that think they know more about it than others with hundreds of thousands of installations under their belt. They will gang together on chat rooms and forums and tell people the CSV is snake oil, because they have no idea what they are talking about.
I get falsely accused of not really wanting to help homeowners, because everything I post anywhere is about the CSV. That is because decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of installations have proven to me that cycling is the number one cause of most pump system problems. Everything from a burned motor to wire chaffing is caused by cycling. Noise or split fittings from water hammer, pumps coming unscrewed, tank bladders bursting, pressure switch points burned, check valves failing, sediment in the water, fluctuating pressure, low pressure, and many other problems can be attributed to cycling. When you stop the pump from cycling on and off, 99% of your problems go away. That is why the CSV is so disruptive to the industry, and why so many people will try to dissuade you from using one.
Sorry for the long post. The CSV is a very simple product with a long and complicated explanation. It doesnt help when others try to further complicate the issue with their lack of understanding, or outright deliberate attempts to keep the homeowner from extending the life of their pump system.
Moderator note: I merged the post that was the reason for this thread, to both keep the Water Cannon thread on topic, and to "explain" this thread.
Thanks to everyone for their participation on the forum, you guys are what makes PlumbingForums the great place that it is.
Thanks to everyone for their participation on the forum, you guys are what makes PlumbingForums the great place that it is.
So then what I should have said is that it is a modified PRV.
John
John
Saying the CSV is a modified PRV is technically an accurate statement. Although, the modifications prevent the device from functioning like a PRV, so it can no longer accurately be called a PRV. The modifications change a Pressure Reducing Valve into a Flow Reducing Valve. The valve can no longer be placed on an incoming high pressure line, as it can no longer reduce the pressure at low flow. Now placed on the discharge of a pump, the modified valve constantly varies the FLOW rate to match the amount being used. Then when no water is being used, it no longer varies the flow, but transforms into a SET flow restrictor similar to a Dole valve, and controls the FLOW rate at which the pressure tank is filled. So the modifications transform a PRV into a FRV or Flow Reducing Valve.
The modification is very simple, but changes the entire function of the valve. It took a lot of time, trial and error, to determine which valve to use and the best way to modify it. Then determining the best way to use the valve for pump control took a tremendous amount of time and testing. Numerous pumps of all kinds and sizes where tested (and destroyed) to find out the lowest possible safe flow rate. The best way to attach a pressure tank, and smallest possible safe tank size also took considerable testing. Then there were a multitude of small things to figure out. Where is the best place to install the pressure switch, what pressure to set it, check valve location and quantity, length of pipe before and after the valve, handling sediment and other debris, and a multitude of other things had to be thoroughly tested. I havent even mentioned what it took to figure out how and what to get patented.
All this testing and patenting took a lot of money and years of time. So I hope you can see why I get irritated when someone says, they just took a CSV apart and figured out how to make their own. I see it as outright stealing and take it very seriously.
I get even more irritated when I am told to lighten up, get over it, and that it is, a ridiculous patent on my precious valve. You should understand why I would ban someone where I can, and hound them where I cant, for admitting to selling a couple hundred copy cat valves, which I see as taking food right out of my families mouths. Those couple hundred valves also hurt my reputation which cuts me out of more business, because they are not even good copies.
It also makes my blood boil that there are sites like Rippoffreports that allow people to remain anonymous while making false accusations, so they cant be sued for their liable statements. (Which I will if I can find out who they are) The rules for that site even state that they do not remove liable statements. So why would anyone believe something from a site that admits to posting lies from anonymous individuals? I would not trust anyone who links to a Rippoffreport as factual, or admits to selling knockoffs of a patented product.
Now having said all that, the CSV is just a simple valve. The idea was basically an accidental discovery. I only claim to be lucky enough to discover it, not brilliant enough to have come up with it. Then it was just a lot of hard work to figure out the best way to make and use it.
What is magical however, is the centrifugal impeller pump. The real geniuses were Martini in 1475, Papin in the 1600s, and Appold in 1851. Very few changes have been made since Appold devised the curved blade design.
The modern centrifugal impeller is very efficient, versatile, long lasting, and inexpensive. It has a wide performance range and works with all kinds of fluids at different temperatures and conditions. Its performance can be manipulated by increasing the diameter, or by using multiple impellers in series. There is a certain amount of clearance between the impeller and the diffuser. Meaning the impeller is suspended and doesnt really touch anything in the pump. Therefore it is self lubricated and cooled with the fluid being pumped.
The CSV simply makes use of the impellers ability to be safely restricted to very low flow rates. Because the impeller touches nothing in the pump, it takes very little flow of cool water to keep the impeller from heating up. The really magical part of the centrifugal impeller is that the more the flow is restricted, the less energy is used. Most people falsely believe restricting the flow makes a pump work harder. In this respect the centrifugal impeller is counter intuitive. While restricting the flow from a piston or positive displacement type pump does make the pump work harder, restricting the flow of a centrifugal pump makes its work easier.
It is a magical thing that when restricting the flow of a centrifugal pump to almost zero, (as when using a CSV) the motor sees almost no load, as if it were not even attached to the pump. Then when opening the restriction (CSV), the pump only uses as much energy as needed to move the particular flow rate delivered. Only when there is no restriction, (CSV wide open) and the pump is moving as much water as possible, is the motor fully loaded and working as hard as it can.
I apologize for the long post and for being so presumptive as to think anyone cares. But there are many people in the pump industry who think they understand how pumps work, and really dont have a clue. Worse is that some people do understand how pumps work and are lying about it. These people make their living selling pumps, and dont want you to know about simple little tricks like the CSV, that can make pumps last longer.
When pumps last longer, it cost you less, and pump manufacturers dont make as much money. They will be glad to help you size a pressure tank to properly cycle your pump to death as in the past. They will be glad to show you how to install a tankless widget that will shorten the pumps life. They will lie to you about a VFD saving energy, and con you into this even more expensive and short lived product. The most honest pump installers will use a CSV on every system, but no pump manufacturer with self preserving instincts will say anything favorable about a CSV.
You have heard the old saying about letting the fox guard the hen house. That is exactly what you are doing when you dont do your own research, and let the pump manufacturers show you the best way to install their pumps.
What is magical however, is the centrifugal impeller pump. The real geniuses were Martini in 1475, Papin in the 1600s, and Appold in 1851. Very few changes have been made since Appold devised the curved blade design.
The modern centrifugal impeller is very efficient, versatile, long lasting, and inexpensive. It has a wide performance range and works with all kinds of fluids at different temperatures and conditions. Its performance can be manipulated by increasing the diameter, or by using multiple impellers in series. There is a certain amount of clearance between the impeller and the diffuser. Meaning the impeller is suspended and doesnt really touch anything in the pump. Therefore it is self lubricated and cooled with the fluid being pumped.
The CSV simply makes use of the impellers ability to be safely restricted to very low flow rates. Because the impeller touches nothing in the pump, it takes very little flow of cool water to keep the impeller from heating up. The really magical part of the centrifugal impeller is that the more the flow is restricted, the less energy is used. Most people falsely believe restricting the flow makes a pump work harder. In this respect the centrifugal impeller is counter intuitive. While restricting the flow from a piston or positive displacement type pump does make the pump work harder, restricting the flow of a centrifugal pump makes its work easier.
It is a magical thing that when restricting the flow of a centrifugal pump to almost zero, (as when using a CSV) the motor sees almost no load, as if it were not even attached to the pump. Then when opening the restriction (CSV), the pump only uses as much energy as needed to move the particular flow rate delivered. Only when there is no restriction, (CSV wide open) and the pump is moving as much water as possible, is the motor fully loaded and working as hard as it can.
I apologize for the long post and for being so presumptive as to think anyone cares. But there are many people in the pump industry who think they understand how pumps work, and really dont have a clue. Worse is that some people do understand how pumps work and are lying about it. These people make their living selling pumps, and dont want you to know about simple little tricks like the CSV, that can make pumps last longer.
When pumps last longer, it cost you less, and pump manufacturers dont make as much money. They will be glad to help you size a pressure tank to properly cycle your pump to death as in the past. They will be glad to show you how to install a tankless widget that will shorten the pumps life. They will lie to you about a VFD saving energy, and con you into this even more expensive and short lived product. The most honest pump installers will use a CSV on every system, but no pump manufacturer with self preserving instincts will say anything favorable about a CSV.
You have heard the old saying about letting the fox guard the hen house. That is exactly what you are doing when you dont do your own research, and let the pump manufacturers show you the best way to install their pumps.
QUOTE (All this testing and patenting took a lot of money and years of time. So I hope you can see why I get irritated when someone says, “they just took a CSV apart and figured out how to make their own”. I see it as outright stealing and take it very seriously.)
I can understand your frustration but what your describing is fair market competition. Without it we would be over paying far more then most products are worth.
John
I can understand your frustration but what your describing is fair market competition. Without it we would be over paying far more then most products are worth.
John
There should be no such thing as fair market competition when it comes to a patented product. You are saying that if someone comes up with a new and beneficial idea, they should just publish a drawing and explanation on the Internet and newspapers so that everyone can make their own. If we didnt give inventors a little bit of protection, we would all still be riding horses and using a string with two tin cans to talk long distance.
I was paying 300 bucks for a jug of herbicide that was patented. Now that the patent has expired I can get it for 75 bucks a jug. Even at 300 bucks it was well worth it to me compared to the alternatives. The inventor got rewarded for a few years, and for that the chemical makeup was disclosed in the patent, so that now everyone can enjoy the use of the product at a fair market value.
A think-tank full of government inventors cannot come up with good ideas like an individual who sees a potential for profit. Profit is the real motivator. Not protecting inventors, means they are not motivated to invent.
But I forget that profit and innovation are bad things in our government today. Those who work and innovate for a living are suppose to give everything they have to those who dont want to work. We should make another law that strips people of their patents, so that no one pays more for products than they are worth. Makes as much sense as mandatory health care and spending our way out of poverty.
I was paying 300 bucks for a jug of herbicide that was patented. Now that the patent has expired I can get it for 75 bucks a jug. Even at 300 bucks it was well worth it to me compared to the alternatives. The inventor got rewarded for a few years, and for that the chemical makeup was disclosed in the patent, so that now everyone can enjoy the use of the product at a fair market value.
A think-tank full of government inventors cannot come up with good ideas like an individual who sees a potential for profit. Profit is the real motivator. Not protecting inventors, means they are not motivated to invent.
But I forget that profit and innovation are bad things in our government today. Those who work and innovate for a living are suppose to give everything they have to those who dont want to work. We should make another law that strips people of their patents, so that no one pays more for products than they are worth. Makes as much sense as mandatory health care and spending our way out of poverty.
There should be no such thing as fair market competition when it comes to a patented product. You are saying that if someone comes up with a new and beneficial idea, they should just publish a drawing and explanation on the Internet and newspapers so that everyone can make their own. If we didnt give inventors a little bit of protection, we would all still be riding horses and using a string with two tin cans to talk long distance.
I was paying 300 bucks for a jug of herbicide that was patented. Now that the patent has expired I can get it for 75 bucks a jug. Even at 300 bucks it was well worth it to me compared to the alternatives. The inventor got rewarded for a few years, and for that the chemical makeup was disclosed in the patent, so that now everyone can enjoy the use of the product at a fair market value.
A think-tank full of government inventors cannot come up with good ideas like an individual who sees a potential for profit. Profit is the real motivator. Not protecting inventors, means they are not motivated to invent.
But I forget that profit and innovation are bad things in our government today. Those who work and innovate for a living are suppose to give everything they have to those who dont want to work. We should make another law that strips people of their patents, so that no one pays more for products than they are worth. Makes as much sense as mandatory health care and spending our way out of poverty.
Sorry but that's the way it is in this country.
Didn't you look at the PRV and say if I make some changes to it I can make a CSV. Just because you have a patent on a product it doesn't prevent others from trying to improve it or make it at a cheaper price. It sounds like you are looking for a monopoly on your CRV. That's not going to happen.
As far as your statement that there should be no such thing as fair market, your living in the wrong country for that to happen. No matter what the product there will always be someone trying to make it better and cheaper. THAT'S A GOOD THING.
John
An original idea or an improvement IS a good thing. But just changing one bolt in order to break a patent or outright infringing is not. If you think like that, might as give all patents to China, and let them make cheaper copies of everything. However, China has more respect for the US patent system than Americans, who seem to have no qualms about making or buying knockoffs.
That's something that should be taken up with the patent office. It can't be solved here.
John
John
Good luck with that. We are soon going to have the same problem with our health insurance. Waiting years to get an uneducated and incorrect response.
That is something I'm in total agreement with you on. I have some very firm options on were headed with this administration. But again this is not the place to discuss it.
John
This is as good of place to discuss it as any other place. There are numerous discussions here that are not plumbing related, and far less interesting than this one.
I actually found it to be very interesting. But then again I am easily amused.
David keep in mind that big brother could be watching. Look what they did to Joe the plumber.
John
John
It is a sad state of affairs when we are so worried that the “government” is watching that we can’t say or do what needs to be said and done. Kind of the reason we are in the mess we are in. Kind of the main reason we need to protect the second amendment.
What did they do to Joe the Plumber?
What did they do to Joe the Plumber?
