Constant pressure pump, 20 gal tank, low pressure from faucets with 2 or more faucets open

[Mrpalazzolo]

Hi, we built our house 5 years ago, and from the start, we have been getting low water pressure at our faucets when 2 or more faucets/appliances open. It also seems a bit low just even taking a shower or 1 faucet, but we have nothing to compare it to.
It is just my wife and I. It is worst when our washing machine is cycling, and we attempt to run our kitchen faucet or take a shower. The water just trickles out at maybe 1/4 the pressure. We have a constant pressure well pump, a 20 gal pressure tank, then a water softener, then a tankless water heater. Pressure is set at 68psi. It is a Gould's submersible pump . Our well company says our well pump is working fine. They said we should be able to run 4 things at the same time and see no pressure issues. The water comes into our walk out basement, then our kitchen, laundry, and bathrooms are on the first and second floors. Not sure where the problem is.

 

[jkl 2455]

A good friend of mine who lives in Alaska had a similar problem, his well pump would practically run constantly whenever demand was put on his system.
As it turned out, the air bladder in his pressure tank was punctured, you may want to check the air pressure in your tank.

 

[MicEd69]

First you need to very what the pressure is doing with some gauges. Also, what is the size and material of your supply lines.

Valveman on this site will surely address this post. and will suggest a Cycle Stop Valve which is very good for supplying constant pressure. If the problem is not in your pipe supply sizing, the Cycle Stop Valve will provide you MUCH better control over your supply pressure from your well pump. It is absolutely the way to go for well pumps,

 

[Valveman]

Thanks MicEd. Yeah this one is right up my alley. Lol! While using a Cycle Stop Valve is a much less expensive, longer lasting, and better pump control than a VFD for many reasons, constant pressure anyway you get it is a good thing. If you are getting 68 PSI constant you shouldn't even need soap in the showers. That much pressure at the shower head will peel the skin off your face, but it has to get to the shower.

With a shower running, does the gauge maintain 68 PSI? What about with more than 1 shower on? Constant pressure means it stays the same for 1 shower as it does for 2 showers at the same time. If the gauge is accurate and holding 68 PSI while water is being used, you are losing pressure somewhere after that pressure gauge. Try bypassing the water softener. See if there are any pre-filters that need cleaning. Or it is possible there is a partially closed valve somewhere.

To make sure the gauge is accurate, turn off power to the pump, open a faucet, and see if the gauge goes to zero. It not, get a new gauge.

But it is your water system. Don't settle for anything less than the best water pressure you have ever encountered. You just need to figure out the problem and make it happen.

 

[Mrpalazzolo]

Thanks MicEd. Yeah this one is right up my alley. Lol! While using a Cycle Stop Valve is a much less expensive, longer lasting, and better pump control than a VFD for many reasons, constant pressure anyway you get it is a good thing. If you are getting 68 PSI constant you shouldn't even need soap in the showers. That much pressure at the shower head will peel the skin off your face, but it has to get to the shower.

With a shower running, does the gauge maintain 68 PSI? What about with more than 1 shower on? Constant pressure means it stays the same for 1 shower as it does for 2 showers at the same time. If the gauge is accurate and holding 68 PSI while water is being used, you are losing pressure somewhere after that pressure gauge. Try bypassing the water softener. See if there are any pre-filters that need cleaning. Or it is possible there is a partially closed valve somewhere.

To make sure the gauge is accurate, turn off power to the pump, open a faucet, and see if the gauge goes to zero. It not, get a new gauge.

But it is your water system. Don't settle for anything less than the best water pressure you have ever encountered. You just need to figure out the problem and make it happen.

Thanks for all of the responses. The gauge maintains 68 PSI (+/- 1) on the main box for the well pump (the digital readout) regardless of how many faucets/showers are running, so we know the well pump is working correctly. There is another dial gauge coming off the small pressure tank, and that maintains 68 PSI regardless how many faucets are on. All of our plumbing lines are PEX. I will have to measure the water lines, but the hot water lines are a little larger than the cold water. The 2 ball valves by our pressure tank are both wide open. Water travels about 25ft from the small pressure tank to the water softener which includes a separate iron filter. I will see if I can do a softener bypass. The water then goes to the tankless water heater which is about 6ft from the water softener. I will also do the gauge test, shutting off the power to the pump, then open the faucet. I know little, to nothing, about plumbing systems, or most other home improvements, but I can understand processes and if/then scenarios, so all of this advice I can certainly understand and find it extremely helpful. Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

I'll bet bypassing the softener will make a huge difference.

 

[Twowaxhack]

My house runs between 75 and 90 psi and there’s no way you’re starting out with 68 psi static and maintaining 68 psi dynamic on your well with every faucet open.

 

[Mrpalazzolo]

I'll bet bypassing the softener will make a huge difference.

How strange. I get no water coming through any faucets when I bypass (at the control valves) either the softener and/or the Iron filter. The tank valves have to be open on both tanks for water to come through the faucets. Attached are a couple pics of the area. Actually I don't know which tank is which. There is a lever valve on the one water line in the pic, too.

 

[Valveman]

The constant pressure controller is working like a Cycle Stop Valve and keeping the pressure at 68 PSI even as you open more faucets. But from the point of the controller forward you have some kind of restriction. Back up a little and take a picture of the entire system, pump controller and all.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The constant pressure controller is working like a Cycle Stop Valve and keeping the pressure at 68 PSI even as you open more faucets. But from the point of the controller forward you have some kind of restriction. Back up a little and take a picture of the entire system, pump controller and all.

Having low pressure is normal with a few faucets running with only 68 psi starting pressure. The pump will eventually reach its max output and your dynamic pressure at the faucets will drop.

I don’t know exactly what pump he has but I wouldn’t think it’s capable of flowing 10gpm and maintain 68 psi.

 

[Valveman]

It is not like with city water where if you start out with 68 PSI the more taps you open the lower the pressure gets. A constant pressure controller, be it the electric VFD type or the mechanical Cycle Stop Valve will maintain that 68 PSI constant as more and more taps are opened. Any 1/2HP, 10 GPM submersible and many jet pumps can easily do 10 GPM at 68 PSI. So, your dynamic pressure stays at a constant 68 PSI through any range of flow.

Now, if the plumber installed restrictions like pipe that is too small you will lose pressure from the pump controller to the shower head, but the pressure at the pump controller stays the same regardless of how many taps you have open.

If the gauge at the pump controller is staying at a constant 68 PSI all the time, yet you can tell a difference in pressure between one or more taps being opened, then you have a restriction of some kind between the gauge on the controller and the taps.

 

[Mrpalazzolo]

My house runs between 75 and 90 psi and there’s no way you’re starting out with 68 psi static and maintaining 68 psi dynamic on your well with every faucet open.

I just had 3 faucets open, one being a showerhead and the dial gauge coming off the small pressure tank fluctuated between 67 and 70 PSI. The digital readout on the well pump control panel fluctuated between 68 and 70 PSI. See video.

It is not like with city water where if you start out with 68 PSI the more taps you open the lower the pressure gets. A constant pressure controller, be it the electric VFD type or the mechanical Cycle Stop Valve will maintain that 68 PSI constant as more and more taps are opened. Any 1/2HP, 10 GPM submersible and many jet pumps can easily do 10 GPM at 68 PSI. So, your dynamic pressure stays at a constant 68 PSI through any range of flow.

Now, if the plumber installed restrictions like pipe that is too small you will lose pressure from the pump controller to the shower head, but the pressure at the pump controller stays the same regardless of how many taps you have open.

If the gauge at the pump controller is staying at a constant 68 PSI all the time, yet you can tell a difference in pressure between one or more taps being opened, then you have a restriction of some kind between the gauge on the controller and the taps.

Yes, this. It is a Gould's submersible constant pressure well pump. 1.5hp 25 gal/min. We are definitely getting a noticeable drop in pressure at our taps when multiple taps are open, especially when a couple showers, or when the washing machine and say the kitchen faucet are running simultaneously. Our well installer said we could run multiple taps simultaneously and we wouldn't see any drop in pressure since the constant pressure pump compensates for increased demand. And now with the complete lack of any water coming out of the faucets with the softener and iron filter bypassed, there has to be another restriction somewhere.

 

[Twowaxhack]

It is not like with city water where if you start out with 68 PSI the more taps you open the lower the pressure gets. A constant pressure controller, be it the electric VFD type or the mechanical Cycle Stop Valve will maintain that 68 PSI constant as more and more taps are opened. Any 1/2HP, 10 GPM submersible and many jet pumps can easily do 10 GPM at 68 PSI. So, your dynamic pressure stays at a constant 68 PSI through any range of flow.

Now, if the plumber installed restrictions like pipe that is too small you will lose pressure from the pump controller to the shower head, but the pressure at the pump controller stays the same regardless of how many taps you have open.

If the gauge at the pump controller is staying at a constant 68 PSI all the time, yet you can tell a difference in pressure between one or more taps being opened, then you have a restriction of some kind between the gauge on the controller and the taps.

Yes, and that restriction is the plumbing system. That’s what I’m
Saying……..

Nothings wrong other than the plumber didn’t size the piping to keep 68psi throughout the entire system just because your pump is seeing 68 psi out in the equipment room.

Has it ever worked the way the customer wants ?

If so, what changed ?

Is there a valve half closed ?

But it’s normal to have dynamic pressure drop at the fixture when you have multiple fixtures running. The pipe can only flow but so much and volume will drop and when volume drops so does your dynamic pressure at the faucet outlets.

Meanwhile your pump and equipment reads 68 psi in the equipment room.

 

[Twowaxhack]

The pump controller is probably producing constant 68 psi and to do that it chokes the volume down I realize it’s probably not that smart…..


That’s what some tankless water heaters do when they can’t meet the outlet temp set point. It chokes volume until it can meet the outlet temp.

This is definitely a volume problem.
If it worked in the past then there’s a bad valve somewhere.

 

[MicEd69]

The pump controller is probably producing constant 68 psi and to do that it chokes the volume down I realize it’s probably not that smart…..


That’s what some tankless water heaters do when they can’t meet the outlet temp set point. It chokes volume until it can meet the outlet temp.

This is definitely a volume problem.
If it worked in the past then there’s a bad valve somewhere.

Here is a pump curve that is probably pretty close to the pump Mrpalazzolo has, or at least one that shows how a pump can easily produce more than 68 psi at 10 GPM and all flows below that. The 175' TDH of the 10HS05 is around 75 PSI. And when flow goes down, the pressure increases above the 75 PSI.

But as I indicated in my original answer, and you commented something similar, the piping to the fixtures needs to be correct, regardless of the water source, city or pump.

 

[wpns]

How strange. I get no water coming through any faucets when I bypass (at the control valves) either the softener and/or the Iron filter. The tank valves have to be open on both tanks for water to come through the faucets. Attached are a couple pics of the area. Actually I don't know which tank is which. There is a lever valve on the one water line in the pic, too.

Then you aren’t bypassing them, you are shutting them off. I also suspect that one or both of them is causing the restriction, though it could be the water heater throttling the flow to keep the temperature up.

Take a better picture of the valve positions in the normal and bypass configurations and check the manual(s) for correct configuration. In my iron filter the two arrows pointed towards each other in the bypass configuration.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Here is a pump curve that is probably pretty close to the pump Mrpalazzolo has, or at least one that shows how a pump can easily produce more than 68 psi at 10 GPM and all flows below that. The 175' TDH of the 10HS05 is around 75 PSI. And when flow goes down, the pressure increases above the 75 PSI.

But as I indicated in my original answer, and you commented something similar, the piping to the fixtures needs to be correct, regardless of the water source, city or pump.

View attachment 40991

I think there’s more speculation and guessing going on than actual on-site diagnostics.

If you can get X amount of gallons AT the pump but you can’t get X amount in the house then it’s restrictive plumbing.

Now, has it ever worked properly ?

If it has worked before then it’s a valve or a section of pipe that’s causing the restriction.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I would open a 1” pipe at the well and see what it’ll actually flow and at what pressure.

I’d start there……

 

[MicEd69]

I think there’s more speculation and guessing going on than actual on-site diagnostics.

If you can get X amount of gallons AT the pump but you can’t get X amount in the house then it’s restrictive plumbing.

Now, has it ever worked properly ?

If it has worked before then it’s a valve or a section of pipe that’s causing the restriction.

In Mrpalazzolo's first sentence of his first post, he said, "Hi, we built our house 5 years ago, and from the start, we have been getting low water pressure at our faucets when 2 or more faucets/appliances open." So apparently it has never worked properly. And you, Valveman, and I have all indicated that somewhere along the line there is a large pressure drop in the plumbing.

My comment showing the pump curve was in response to your comment, "...there’s no way you’re starting out with 68 psi static and maintaining 68 psi dynamic on your well with every faucet open."

Not that this is the pump he has, but for instance the 10HS05 pump will produce 68 PSI at the well head up to about 11.5 GPM and will produce that pressure at all flows up to that flow rate. The 10HS07 will produce 68 PSI up to about 14.5 GPM.

Your description of the plumbing dynamics is spot on though. "But it’s normal to have dynamic pressure drop at the fixture when you have multiple fixtures running. The pipe can only flow but so much and volume will drop and when volume drops so does your dynamic pressure at the faucet outlets. Meanwhile your pump and equipment reads 68 psi in the equipment room."

 

[Twowaxhack]

If it’s never worked correctly then that rules out a lot.

Again, I’d open a 1” pipe at the well and see what kind of flow and pressure I get.

But once you open 3 faucets with normal house plumbing you’re naturally going to get a drop in volume……that’s just common sense.


Then I’d look into getting city water and throw the toys in a dumpster.

Pump curve graphs are great but what’s on paper doesn’t mean the customers pump is actually making that. That’s what it’s “ suppose “ to do.

Open a pipe at the well……..let it run. Now go inside and see if you still have great pressure with one faucet running.

See if opening faucets inside the house affect the flow outside at the pump where you have a pipe open.

If opening faucets inside affect the flow at the open pipe at the pump……then your pump is not putting out the water you think it’s is.