Chemical Feed Volume

[frodo]

She's allergic to pineapple...

no she's not.


I'm sorry, I could not pass that up.
you set it up so perfect. i'll stop now, Greg is correct, we cutt'n up like kids


if it was my system Greg, I would sanitize the system and start over

you obviously have a agile/mold/ bacteria in that line.

 

[gregp553]

We (actually I) got side tracked. It isn't how it is supposed to work but you know how children are. That's my fault...

If the water softener is plumbed before the iron filter (I believe that is what you posted), I doubt any WS brine/media cleanser will reach the distribution pipes. It (most) will be flushed with the back wash feature most likely.

And then to add to the problem, there is no cleaner/conditioner in the iron filter conditioner container and most likely the iron filter media has became fouled and is possibly releasing partially fouled water directly to the distribution pipes. A water softener is a water conditioner and not a filter. While it may remove some iron (or possibly all iron in a low iron situation), the iron and magnesium should be removed before entering the WS to prevent excessive BRINE fouling (IMO).

How often do you change the pre-filter?


I NEED AN OFFICIAL RULING HERE BY AN EXPERT...

Can you post a close-up detailed photo of the WS-IF supply plumbing to ascertain how it is plumbed?

No problem, we all have these issues.
I change the pre-filter about every 2-3 months. The water comes in from the prefilter, into the first water softener on the right that rinses with salt, then directly into WS #2 on the left in this photo that injects the bleach as a media rinse, then out. The first stop in the cold water run is that upstairs bathroom where the cold faucet produces the smell.
I agree I need to clean out the iron filter (WS #2) and see where that leads. This weekend's project I guess.
Thanks again.

 

[KULTULZ]

No problem, we all have these issues.

...strange...

My old lady (aka The Ice Princess) also says I have issues... sob...

 

[gregp553]

If the water softener is plumbed before the iron filter (I believe that is what you posted), I doubt any WS brine/media cleanser will reach the distribution pipes. It (most) will be flushed with the back wash feature most likely.

And then to add to the problem, there is no cleaner/conditioner in the iron filter conditioner container and most likely the iron filter media has became fouled and is possibly releasing partially fouled water directly to the distribution pipes.

Based on this comment, can I simply engage the bypass on the iron filter unit and see if that clears up the smell from that faucet? If water does not go through the iron filter and the smell goes away maybe we can assume the media in the iron filter is fouled. How does that sound? Am I understanding how this thing works?

 

[speedbump]

I am not sure where you get the idea that you have two softeners. You only need one. If the second unit is in fact an iron filter it should be in front of the softener. So the flow would be: pre filter (not needed at all) iron filter then softener. The softener would have the brine tank with salt in it with plastic tubing hooking it to the softener. The iron filter would generally have a little bucket (about 5 gallons) that should contain potassium permangenate to oxidize the iron. Also attached with plastic tubing. Drawing bleach into the iron filter would be a very temporary thing and would make the iron filter sort of useless.

Having water that only smells in one faucet is kind of like having a wife that is sort of pregnant.

 

[KULTULZ]

Based on this comment, can I simply engage the bypass on the iron filter unit and see if that clears up the smell from that faucet?

If water does not go through the iron filter and the smell goes away maybe we can assume the media in the iron filter is fouled. How does that sound? Am I understanding how this thing works?

In addition to speedbump's excellent entry-

The iron filter will not remove all variables to prevent fouling of the distribution system. It takes more than one component to condition water properly, that being determined by a complete professional water analysis. It may be possible to somewhat sanitize the distribution system by by-passing the iron filter and dumping a cleaner into the brine and letting it sit in the distribution system for a while and completely flushing after that.

That being said, the smell you are experiencing (most likely) is as a result of the cleaning systems of the iron filter and the water softener not being cleansed and maintained properly. Being that it is in only odor in one cold faucet line indicates that the supply line is fouled.

The iron filter has to be plumbed before the iron filter, period. It also may be able to introduce a cleanser/conditioner into the WS brine/media that may sanitize the distribution system with the iron filter by-passed. Otherwise you are going to have to introduce chlorine/hydrogen peroxide to the distribution system after the conditioner system(s).

Please google hydrogen peroxide injection systems to understand how this will maintain sterility in the distribution system.

Also read your manual(s) to see if the manufacturer(s) recommends media replacement and under what conditions.

The system(s) you presently have will only condition the water, not sanitize it.

 

[gregp553]

I am not sure where you get the idea that you have two softeners. You only need one. If the second unit is in fact an iron filter it should be in front of the softener. So the flow would be: pre filter (not needed at all) iron filter then softener. The softener would have the brine tank with salt in it with plastic tubing hooking it to the softener. The iron filter would generally have a little bucket (about 5 gallons) that should contain potassium permangenate to oxidize the iron. Also attached with plastic tubing. Drawing bleach into the iron filter would be a very temporary thing and would make the iron filter sort of useless.

Having water that only smells in one faucet is kind of like having a wife that is sort of pregnant.

I do not mean 2 softeners, I mean 2 units. One is a softener, one is an iron filter. (see, I'm learning). If you can see the second photo I posted on page one of this thread, the water is coming in through the 20" filter from right to left. It goes into my softener that is on the right. The copper then comes out and goes into the iron filter that does in fact have the black bucket. The previous owner told me to put bleach in it. So that means my iron filter is in the wrong position and it should contain potassium permanganate not bleach. OK. And probably the media needs to be cleaned or replaced. Ok again. But finally, I assure you the distinct smell of eggs comes only from one cold faucet for about 10-15 seconds. No other faucets have any smell, taste or otherwise. As impossible as it sounds, it is distinct for 10 seconds in one faucet and non-existent in every other faucet. Thanks for the input. I may not replumb the iron filter very soon but I will try to service the iron filter this weekend and buy some Potassium permanganate.

 

[gregp553]

In addition to speedbump's excellent entry-

The iron filter will not remove all variables to prevent fouling of the distribution system. It takes more than one component to condition water properly, that being determined by a complete professional water analysis. It may be possible to somewhat sanitize the distribution system by by-passing the iron filter and dumping a cleaner into the brine and letting it sit in the distribution system for a while and completely flushing after that.

That being said, the smell you are experiencing (most likely) is as a result of the cleaning systems of the iron filter and the water softener not being cleansed and maintained properly. Being that it is in only odor in one cold faucet line indicates that the supply line is fouled.

The iron filter has to be plumbed before the iron filter, period. It also may be able to introduce a cleanser/conditioner into the WS brine/media that may sanitize the distribution system with the iron filter by-passed. Otherwise you are going to have to introduce chlorine/hydrogen peroxide to the distribution system after the conditioner system(s).

Please google hydrogen peroxide injection systems to understand how this will maintain sterility in the distribution system.

Also read your manual(s) to see if the manufacturer(s) recommends media replacement and under what conditions.

The system(s) you presently have will only condition the water, not sanitize it.

Got it. Regarding the owners manual, nothing in it gives meaningful information about condition of media or replacement intervals. Thanks.

 

[KULTULZ]

... the water is coming in through the 20" filter from right to left. It goes into my softener that is on the right. The copper then comes out and goes into the iron filter that does in fact have the black bucket. The previous owner told me to put bleach in it. So that means my iron filter is in the wrong position and it should contain potassium permanganate not bleach.

OK. It may be that the system the previous owner installed was a chlorination injection system (or some type of variation).

-How to Use Chlorine Bleach To Keep Your Iron Filter Clean -

Routing Install Diagram-

BUT!

Your iron filter is positioned incorrectly. While the chlorine will sanitize the iron filter (and the distribution system once the correct injection amount is arrived at), it still needs a post filter to trap particulates. Going though the water softener brine (as in your current setup) only inhibits the chlorines ability to cleanse past the WS brine tank (IMO).

So if you are comfortable with ingesting chlorine (as do most with municipal water), you will be OK. A carbon filter will remove the chlorine but the removal will negate its' ability to keep the distribution system sanitized.

 

[speedbump]

Thanks for the input. I may not replumb the iron filter very soon but I will try to service the iron filter this weekend and buy some Potassium permanganate.

I can't explain the one faucet smelling bad, but your not the first to tell me that.

The pottassium permangenate is a course powder that when wet turns deep purple. On the skin turns brown and doesn't come off easily. Lemon juice works best for removal. Only put it in the feeder is it draws water during the draw cycle. It may not be programmed or set up correctly since they are recommending bleach. It has to draw a few ounces of PP just before the final rinse cycle. The last cycle being the feeder refill.

 

[KULTULZ]

if it was my system Greg, I would sanitize the system and start over

you obviously have a agile/mold/ bacteria in that line.

Most likely in the complete system but it is manifesting itself in just that one line (for now).

Here is what is confusing-

The original owner said to just add a small amount of chlorine bleach periodically to the solution container but if a chorine injection system was actually employed, the container should hold a mixture of chlorine and sanitized water.

Now whether the solution tank was added as an accessory or as part of the original iron filter installation (and as there is no apparent mixing feature @ the control head) (and there is nothing in the user manual or if there is a separate conditioner manual misplaced) it is difficult to diagnose what is really going on.

Usually, a chlorination injection system is used with a manganese dioxide based iron filter and potassium permanganate injection is used with a greensand based iron filter. Continued use of chlorine in greensand is a no-no but a quick cleansing with is not detrimental.

The plumbing has to be straightened out before anything will work (except direct chlorine injection to the distribution system after the iron filter) (as presently plumbed). The iron in the water is most likely fouling the WS brine tank.

Does your WS instruction/install manual give you any info as to sanitizing the house distribution system immediately after initial WS installation?

 

[gregp553]

Most likely in the complete system but it is manifesting itself in just that one line (for now).

Here is what is confusing-

The original owner said to just add a small amount of chlorine bleach periodically to the solution container but if a chorine injection system was actually employed, the container should hold a mixture of chlorine and sanitized water.

Now whether the solution tank was added as an accessory or as part of the original iron filter installation (and as there is no apparent mixing feature @ the control head) (and there is nothing in the user manual or if there is a separate conditioner manual misplaced) it is difficult to diagnose what is really going on.

Usually, a chlorination injection system is used with a manganese dioxide based iron filter and potassium permanganate injection is used with a greensand based iron filter. Continued use of chlorine in greensand is a no-no but a quick cleansing with is not detrimental.

The plumbing has to be straightened out before anything will work (except direct chlorine injection to the distribution system after the iron filter) (as presently plumbed). The iron in the water is most likely fouling the WS brine tank.

Does your WS instruction/install manual give you any info as to sanitizing the house distribution system immediately after initial WS installation?

What you're saying makes sense, now here's an interesting development. When I run through the advanced settings on the iron filter, there is a setting that shows how much water has been used in some period of time. Mine reads zero, which is wrong. And the bar graph that shows how much life left in the media before another charge is required is not moving off of 100%. Does that mean these readings are incorrect or is there another issue? Are we having fun yet? By the way, the black bucket has a plumber's sticker pasted on top of it, covering the instructions. When I peeled part of it away the first words are "For Potassium Per . . ." It keeps getting better!

 

[KULTULZ]

... now here's an interesting development.

When I run through the advanced settings on the iron filter, there is a setting that shows how much water has been used in some period of time. Mine reads zero, which is wrong. And the bar graph that shows how much life left in the media before another charge is required is not moving off of 100%. Does that mean these readings are incorrect or is there another issue?

Are we having fun yet?

By the way, the black bucket has a plumber's sticker pasted on top of it, covering the instructions. When I peeled part of it away the first words are "For Potassium Per . . ."

It keeps getting better!

Does the manual give detailed description of how to calibrate and read the settings and what to look for if it (either WS or IF) malfunctions?

It sounds like this was something just thrown together and they didn't know how to plumb in the components in correct order also.

Adding chlorine (cup) to the iron filter conditioner container surely isn't going to reach the distribution system after the IF media (as plumbed currently), or the IF media, WS brine tank and the WS media tank (if plumbed correctly). Either system (plumbed incorrectly or correctly) would have to be on a continuous correctly metered chlorine solution supply (which can also damage a greensand filter).

I think you are going to have to fall back, punt and re-strategize...

 

[gregp553]

Does the manual give detailed description of how to calibrate and read the settings and what to look for if it (either WS or IF) malfunctions?

Adding chlorine (cup) to the iron filter conditioner container surely isn't going to reach the distribution system after the IF media (as plumbed currently), or the IF media, WS brine tank and the WS media tank (if plumbed correctly). Either system (plumbed incorrectly or correctly) would have to be on a continuous correctly metered chlorine solution supply (which can also damage a greensand filter).

I think you are going to have to fall back, punt and re-strategize...

The instructions give zero helpful information. In fact, the only instructions I have refer to a "water softener" not an iron filter. And the top of the Potassium bucket says "For Potasssium Permanganate. Do not use bleach. Sure glad somebody covered that info with a sticker so I can call for service. My next move might be to call for the guy who installed it. Have him explain this mess and fix it. That would be a punt, as you suggest.

 

[gregp553]

KULTULZ, I've been reading again - never a good thing. I went to softenerparts.com to find instructions on how to add PP to the feeder tank and they show my exact feeder tank that they say is used for injecting potassium perm. on a greensand filter, or for injecting chlorine: "Also used as a chlorine feeder tank for Carbon Filter applications." So here are my new questions. Is there a way to know if it's a greensand filter? Is my "iron filter" really an iron filter? How would I know what kind of filter this is? All it says is an Ecowater Systems Electronic Demand. The screen says Model P-39. Or is it finally time to call in an expert? I bought Potassium Perm. but I guess I need to know for sure before I go adding it to a filter that may not be an iron filter. Does any of that make sense? Sorry, but I'm never happy until I learn everything I can about what I don't know. (I'm sure that doesn't make sense.)

 

[KULTULZ]

I went to softenerparts.com to find instructions on how to add PP to the feeder tank and they show my exact feeder tank that they say is used for injecting potassium perm. on a greensand filter, or for injecting chlorine: "Also used as a chlorine feeder tank for Carbon Filter applications."

So here are my new questions. Is there a way to know if it's a greensand filter? Is my "iron filter" really an iron filter? How would I know what kind of filter this is? All it says is an Ecowater Systems Electronic Demand. The screen says Model P-39.

Or is it finally time to call in an expert? I bought Potassium Perm. but I guess I need to know for sure before I go adding it to a filter that may not be an iron filter. Does any of that make sense? Sorry, but I'm never happy until I learn everything I can about what I don't know. (I'm sure that doesn't make sense.)

How about this scenario... It was one type of filter at installation but someone decided to change it over?

What I would do is contact -EcoWater Systems - (website) and see if they have a local installer/dealer that can identify what you have, if it can be serviced and why it was plumbed as it was. A consultation should be free seeing as how you are a customer.

Please get back and let us know what you find. This is very interesting.

I wonder what the number is of people who have no idea if their system was spec'd correctly, was installed properly or has not been maintained properly?

There are so many song and dances out there regarding cleaning water and some are just plain fraud it seems.

 

[KULTULZ]

And here is something else confusing (to me anyways)...

Why would the installer put his ad over the instructions/warning for the solution container? Was it only to draw chlorine solution or he just wanted to post it where it could be seen readily?

Hey frodo? These installers have to be licensed I assume?

 

[gregp553]

Here's the label with the sticker mostly removed. I think you're right about my next move. BTW, his sticker is stuck on every piece of equipment in my system if you look at the original photos. Sheesh. PS: it says "oxidizer 5.1" on the label. Holy Moly! Revelation: after the advanced screen shows model P-39, it then goes to a quick screen that says "5.1"

 

[speedbump]

I just looked at your first couple of posts and your pictures. The black container on the left is in fact a potassium permangenate feeder. It even says so on the little tank. It also has a black plastic tube going to the iron filter. It is a typical iron filter water softener system. Problem is, as white and pretty as that feeder it, I can promise you nobody has ever added potassium to it. Go find some and add it to the feeder. If it's working properly, it will mix with the water in the tank and slowly go away before you add more. Everything inside of that container will be purple. The oxidation process may in fact make your smell go away also.

 

[gregp553]

I just looked at your first couple of posts and your pictures. The black container on the left is in fact a potassium permangenate feeder. It even says so on the little tank. It also has a black plastic tube going to the iron filter. It is a typical iron filter water softener system. Problem is, as white and pretty as that feeder it, I can promise you nobody has ever added potassium to it. Go find some and add it to the feeder. If it's working properly, it will mix with the water in the tank and slowly go away before you add more. Everything inside of that container will be purple. The oxidation process may in fact make your smell go away also.

Thanks Speedbump. The previous homeowner was putting bleach in it. That's what he told me to do. I bought the house last year.
I bought PP yesterday. since there are no real instructions, I guess I pour the PP on the white pad. Should the tank be filled with some level of water? How much water? That's my last question, I swear.