Can a professional plumber answer this question re closet flanges

[SGkent]

Have to replace at least one ABS toilet flange in concrete. I believe it is an inside 4" outside 3" that was used about 10 years ago to replace a 4" outside original from 1979. I have ordered Reed tools to remove the present flange. My plumber has been busy and evasive on how he wants to fix it so I am preparing to do it myself if he lacks the proper reamer (Reed TFR400). The big question is which brand flange do I replace it with - it sits on concrete and the tapcon screws don't seem to have much to bite in the concrete so I cannot rely just on the screws to hold a simple replacement ring. I believe that the ABS flanges ones with a stainless ring are the best solution, and that using another (inside 4" outside 3") replacement will be the easiest solution - I do not believe there is enough room to remove the original exterior 4" outside remains, which were left when the original 1979 flange was cut off. Of these three ABS w/ stainless brands available to me, which would you choose?

Ferguson Proflo - example: PROFLO® 4 X 3 in. Plastic ABS Closet Flange with Stainless Steel Ring | Ferguson

Sioux Chief TKO (I watched video how to properly remove knockout) - example: Sioux Chief Tko 3 x 4 Abs Closet Flange With Stainless Steel Ring | Ferguson

Oatey from big box store - example: Oatey® 3 - 4 in. ABS EZ IPT Tap on Pipe Closet Flange with Stainless Steel Ring | Ferguson

 

[SGkent]

We are sort of in a bind to get this resolved asap -it is holding several other parts of a project up along with those contractors. Thanks in advance.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I cut the old flange out with a sawzall and then a sharp flathead screwdriver. But your Reed solution is fine.

Use any Abs with stainless flange ring.

It needs to be anchored to the slab.

 

[SGkent]

Thank you. Will anchor it the best I can. Concrete is temperamental in that area. I guess I could pick out any lose concrete near the flange, use some hydraulic cement to fill any voids, stick in stainless or tapcon screws, pack down and then hope for the best. I used a 5/32" SDS bit for 3/16" tapcon screws on the old flange, and it felt like it was hitting voids in the concrete as it went. Pulled a couple screws out with my fingers. I'll know better when I cut the flange off. Nothing else is near it, especially so close to the surface, so soft or no concrete is all that it can be.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Chip out all you can and pour in hydraulic cement and let it cure. Stick the bowl to the finished floor with some good adhesive caulk and let it cure.

 

[SGkent]

Thank you. Will do.

I went with the Proflo flange. It is a good quality builder grade ASTM 2261 DVW ABS whereas the Sioux Chief is more robust. The Sioux Chief knockout takes a lot more hammering to break it free, and this is 45 year old ABS. I could knock it out before installing it but if one watches the Sioux Chief factory video on how to remove that knockout - they really hammer on it. Ferguson Cal-Steam had many of the Proflo in stock compared to the SC and the local plumbers here in Sacramento seem to use it (ABS or PVC version) or the solid ABS/PVC depending on original pipes. This house is 1979 ABS in concrete.

 

[SGkent]

Chip out all you can and pour in hydraulic cement and let it cure. Stick the bowl to the finished floor with some good adhesive caulk and let it cure.

with anchoring cement or hydraulic cement how many hours to drill holes in it do you think? By the time I set the flange, get it in place, and push screws in, the cement would already be setting up. I also have a bucket of Quikrete Quick-Setting cement on hand already that sets up in about 15 minutes but I can't find any defined articles or specs on when it can be drilled. It sets eventually in 30 days to 6000 psi compression, and 2000 in 24 hours. I don't know if that is enough to handle the forces thrown at it as the screws push in, and I don't want to wait a week or two on setting the toilet. The flange with no screws has carried the load for 45 years but that is all the more reason to work on strengthening the arrangement with screws thru the flange.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Fill it in with anchoring cement and let it cure for a day then temporarily set the toilet for a month then take it back up and anchor it to the slab. Or buy some quick set anchoring epoxy.

Caulking the bowl to a flat floor and letting the caulk cure for a couple days also works.

That’s the best I have.

 

[SGkent]

Thank you. I found one article by Quikrete that suggested the quick-setting cement is best for under the flange than the anchoring or hydraulic cement. I would have thought otherwise and they did not say why. It requires a bit more prep. Compression strength is 2000 psi after 24 hours. I don't think tapcon is how I will go. They seem too temperamental. Lead ferrells are highly recomended but the hole size is so large (5/16") for a #12 stainless screw. Also the ferrells are not carried except at ACE locally in 100 piece boxes - and I only need 12. Maybe their hardware bins have them, I don't know. Toggle makes a system that uses a plastic anchor and shows something like 600 lbs strength but again, I have no experience that I can find online with them in this application. Right now I am off to the vet, and will cut off the flange when I get home. That will probably tell me more about what I can and cannot due. I did not think about the adherence that the caulking will add to the installation. That is a really good point.

 

[SGkent]

closing this out. My licensed and experienced plumbers were here this morning upgrading the 45 year old clean out that has rusted to where it snags things. My main plumber took a look at the flange while here, and replaced it for nothing. We used the Reed cutters, they worked well, just a little looser than they should have been but he used a hand drill instead of an angle drill. I donated the Reed cutters to him to add to the rest of his Reed set. If the other toilet presents a problem when the flooring is replaced then he can use them and bill me to fix that one. I like the guy and he does not hesitate to accept responsibility for his decisions.

He went with a Sioux Chief ABS flange that has a red expansion seal built into the tail since I have glued this pipe before, and the Sioux Chief was tighter. He used 1/4 tapcon hex head screws after he drilled new holes at an angle if drilling straight down did not bite. All six holes are tight. He said that he doesn't like the stainless rings because he has been on several call backs where the stainless ring separated / came free from the flange. His opinion was that the solid ABS and PVC flanges only bend or break when either the toilet bowl is abused, or the bolts get over tightened. It looks good and I am looking forward to reinstalling the toilet later today.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Pvc or abs isn’t strong when being pinched. As pvc ages it loses its elasticity and becomes harder and can crack if it’s under any strain. ABS is even worse about cracking.

Having used all types, I feel the stainless rings are the best on the market.

 

[TomFOhio]

I agree and try buying flanges without the knock out. I hate those things.

 

[SGkent]

Thanks everyone. The flooring guy is here on the second bathroom. It too has an aluminum flange. Has a little corrosion but minimal compared to the last one. Hoping to be able to use it again without replacing it. I gifted the Reed tools to my plumber who is booked today if the bolts fail to hold, but I am pretty sure they will hold. I wire wheeled the aluminum, it buffed up with minimal pitting. Fingers crossed. I agree that the stainless ones are generally better. However, my licensed plumber, Max told me that the reason he went back to ABS and PVC is that the quality of the stainless is crappy to the point he has had call backs where the stainless rusted, or pulled free from the flange when the ring of plastic holding the stainless cracked. Maybe someday a 100 year solution other than cast iron will be invented. Maybe some form of fiber impregnated composite.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Max must’ve gotten a bad batch, I live on the gulf coast in salt air and our stainless flanges don’t rust.