Advice for plumbing double rainshowers + handheld + tub spout

[Zanne]

My friend currently has a wall-mount style showerhead with built-in slidebar. The controls are Delta Lahara dualstatic with a multichoice valve. It allows for control of both pressure and temperature.

He wants to change it out to have two ceiling mount rainshower heads as well as a handheld. I've seen setups where some sort of loop plumbing is done to make sure each showerhead gets equal pressure. I saw Amazon.com


It allows for 3 "shared" positions and 3 individual positions. I'm guessing that means more than one can be on at a time. It goes with the R11000 valve. If the showerheads are on separate ports of the valve (it has 3 outlets and one inlet). Let's say the rear/farther rainshowerhead comes out of the middle, closer showerhead comes from the left, and then handheld comes from the right. Would I need to do any looping to get equal pressure from the rainshowers? Or would the valve balance that out?

The part going to the handheld would be like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Faucet-50560-BL-Elbow-Shower/dp/B000KQ5XLK/
Might be able to find a cheaper one with similar look.

So, plan is something like this:

The pipes would go up into the ceiling and of course things would be spaced differently. This is not to scale.
Editing to add that there was a This Old House video that suggested going up to 3/4" pipe to increase pressure/flow. Would that work with pex if the line coming in to the room is only 1/2"?
Any thoughts/suggestions?

 

[jkl 2455]

I've read elsewhere that if one plans to install multiple body sprays that they should be installed in a loop for pressure and volume equalization concerns, which sounds logical.
Wouldn't shower heads be considered simply larger body sprays? (I consider them to be, though some may disagree with me).
With that said, I'd say that a loop would be needed for your shower heads if the 2 were to be flowing simultaneously, a setup I'm sure you'd want.
I'll be watching your post, as I am considering remodeling a shower with plumbing similar to your proposal....
Good Luck!

 

[Zanne]

I've read elsewhere that if one plans to install multiple body sprays that they should be installed in a loop for pressure and volume equalization concerns, which sounds logical.
Wouldn't shower heads be considered simply larger body sprays? (I consider them to be, though some may disagree with me).
With that said, I'd say that a loop would be needed for your shower heads if the 2 were to be flowing simultaneously, a setup I'm sure you'd want.
I'll be watching your post, as I am considering remodeling a shower with plumbing similar to your proposal....
Good Luck!

I'd heard that as well, but I think that is when they are coming from the same port sharing a line. This valve has 3 outlets instead of one. So each showerhead would have an individual line. I don't know how the loop thing would work for separate outlets. But if anyone knows, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[jkl 2455]

I'd heard that as well, but I think that is when they are coming from the same port sharing a line. This valve has 3 outlets instead of one. So each showerhead would have an individual line. I don't know how the loop thing would work for separate outlets. But if anyone knows, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I looked at your diagram again and agree with you about not needing a loop system for your shower heads, as they are coming off of 2 separate outlets on your diverter valve.
Regarding your question about increasing your PEX to 3/4 " from 1/2", that wouldn't accomplish much, as you are still limited to the hydraulic characteristics of the 1/2" line.
I wish I could use PEX for my upcoming shower reno, but here in Hawaii there's a particular specie of rodent which loves to gnaw through the material in their quest for water, not a ideal situation for unexposed plumbing...

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Maybe this valve would be useful: Grohe Grotherm https://www.grohe.us/bathroom/grohtherm-smartcontrol
Scroll down for different color options and for the round escutcheon. There is a video on the page showing it in action.

The valve has three separately controlled push-on, push-off, turn for volume (pressure) outlets, so no loop concern is needed. It is temperature balanced, so you can leave the temperature as-set between uses.


Even though it only has 3 outlets, testing mine showed 6-1/2 gallons per minute (43PSI house pressure) at the shower arm- more than enough for two heads. All three outlets on at once, if I remember correctly, supplied 11 GPM total.

The valve body (Rapido Box) comes in versions for sweat, PEX and NPT.


The negative is that this is kind of an expensive valve. The positive is that the installation was simple and very quick.

Paul

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

Paul, Bir Doo, those valves looks very attractive. They also appears to be quite complex and I am wondering how you would assess their long-term reliability? Do you feel it would be easy to maintain if the push-on, push-off, volume controls started sticking, etc?

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Paul, Bir Doo, those valves looks very attractive. They also appears to be quite complex and I am wondering how you would assess their long-term reliability? Do you feel it would be easy to maintain if the push-on, push-off, volume controls started sticking, etc?

I've installed a few, including my home. So far, so good. From the factory, one had a problem with one of the on-off valves called "Aquadimmer". Grohe gave me a choice to swap the whole valve locally or send me a new part. They sent the part & a spare Aquadimmer right away.

For long term, I think this valve will hold up because the valves and the thermostatic element (temperature control) have heavy duty, stainless steel screens all the way around to catch any lime or sediment. You can soak them in vinegar to loosen the lime, then brush away.

The shiny parts are thick metal, not chrome plated plastic. The escutcheon weighs about 2 pounds alone. The plating is thick, too (and covered under lifetime warranty).

The Rapido Box water carrying part is a large ring made from heavy, machined & polished brass. (Rapido is made in Germany)

The valve's water carrying parts are ABS, so I think lime won't ever stick. (The check valves are nylon.) The valve itself is made in USA, Mexico or Germany- depending on which lot your dealer has.

If you live in a water conservation state, such as California, the flow reducer is included, but not installed. It takes just a second to install it.

A Grohe tech support person told me the only things they consider a "wear out" part are the Aquadimmers & thermostatic element IF it is wear out symptom. If they physically break, they are lifetime warranted. The rest of the unit is covered under a lifetime warranty, including the plating or paint if you get the white one.

Servicing it isn't bad:
The new version has built in service stops. Pull off the excutcheon plate. (It does not get caulked on, so that's super easy).

Then turn off the service stops (1/4 nut driver or 6mm hex key wrench).

Use a deep socket to remove the Aquadimmer or thermostatic cartridge. The Aquadimmers use 34 mm and the temperature control needs 36 mm. Plumber's shower valve sockets in metric have those sizes. (Grohe sells them too, but for something crazy like $65.00 each)

If, for some reason, you want to remove the whole valve; Take out 4 screws & pull the whole valve assembly straight out. Easy.
(If you remove the whole valve, you can use wrenches instead of sockets to remove the Aquadimmer & thermostatic element.)


In summary, for something so complex, I think it will hold up well. For the high price, I expect it to.
Paul

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

Paul, that information is good to know and comforting because I am considering one.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

My Pleasure, BlueSkyHigh.

My favorite part about service is that the escutcheon is not caulked on. Easy Access!

I forgot to mention that, thanks to the good advice from Breplumb, I installed water hammer arresters on mine. That's good insurance since the valves are push button off. They close fast when the water is on full blast. (They do make a faint "clunk" sound when turning off at high volume due to the springs.)

I made a mistake in my earlier post about the Rapido box. You can get the Rapido made for PEX or with F-NPT fittings, not sweat. (I can't remember if the PEX is expansion or crimp. I've only used the threaded ones with M-NPT x Sweat adapters.)

 

[Zanne]

My friend needs to use something small in order for it to fit where he wants it to, so he's probably going with the one I linked. The grohe one is fancy.

 

[EdwardJd]

My friend currently has a wall-mount style showerhead with built-in slidebar. The controls are Delta Lahara dualstatic with a multichoice valve. It allows for control of both pressure and temperature.

He wants to change it out to have two ceiling mount rainshower heads as well as a handheld. I've seen setups where some sort of loop plumbing is done to make sure each showerhead gets equal pressure. I saw Amazon.com
View attachment 40912

It allows for 3 "shared" positions and 3 individual positions. I'm guessing that means more than one can be on at a time. It goes with the R11000 valve. If the showerheads are on separate ports of the valve (it has 3 outlets and one inlet). Let's say the rear/farther rainshowerhead comes out of the middle, closer showerhead comes from the left, and then handheld comes from the right. Would I need to do any looping to get equal pressure from the rainshowers? Or would the valve balance that out?
View attachment 40913
The part going to the handheld would be like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Delta-Faucet-50560-BL-Elbow-Shower/dp/B000KQ5XLK/View attachment 40914
Might be able to find a cheaper one with similar look.

So, plan is something like this:
View attachment 40915
The pipes would go up into the ceiling and of course things would be spaced differently. This is not to scale.
Editing to add that there was a This Old House video that suggested going up to 3/4" pipe to increase pressure/flow. Would that work with pex if the line coming in to the room is only 1/2"?
Any thoughts/suggestions?

Three years ago, I had the same thinking as your friend, then I changed my mind: not installing shower pipes on my ceiling. I used two GroheRapido SmartBox for my bathroom. Installing it is not difficult, just follow the videos that can be found on youtube. The user manuals by Grohe are too detail & complicated. Instead of using copper pipe, I used all pex pipes to make my tasks easier than. I'm really happy & satisfy with my Grohe rapido boxes made in Germany. They're quite far better than any us brand made in China.

 

[Zanne]

The grohe thing is outside of his budget and it won't fit on his shower with where the holes are already placed. I do appreciate the suggestion though.
He already has a high arc rainshower like that, but the problem is he has a low ceiling so it limits how high the arm could go. If he gets a very short shower arm and puts it down from the ceiling, it will give more head room. Plus he wants to have two showerheads coming down from the top.

 

[havasu]

I will go on record that he will absolutely hate the dual showerheads coming down from the ceiling. The water will only dribble as it comes out, and won't even remove the shampoo from his head.

 

[BlueSkyHigh]

The water will only dribble as it comes out, and won't even remove the shampoo from his head.

(He could be bald)

 

[Zanne]

Havasu, I'll pass that info along to him. I know he removes flow restrictors from things but I don't know how that would work with the ceiling mount thing. I personally like the showerhead he's using now (I bought it for him) but he wants to take showers with his gf. I'll have to talk to his gf as well and see what she wants. She's so busy working most of the time I don't get to talk to her as much.

Friend has nice hair but he puts gel or something in it. He spends more time on his hair than I spend on mine.