Multiple Shower Issues

[Ferdinand]

I pulled off the chrome sleeve, under which there is a rubber O-Ring. It's split.

I also removed the C-clip.

There's the brass nut, behind that what looks like a brass flat washer with some numbers stamped in it, then the big ring with the spline teeth.

 

[Ferdinand]

I cleaned some of the corrosion off so I could read the numbers.

It says, "47025 0797".

Does that mean anything to anybody??

 

[Ferdinand]

On to the next step.

The cone-shaped surface is what the temperature dial squeezes onto, held by a brass screw.

The little red square indicates one of the two flat surfaces allowing me to turn that shaft using a wrench. Sadly that had no noticeable effect. Evidently the cartridge is buggered.

So now the big question.

The temperature dial can only rotate so far before hitting the stops on that black plastic piece that fits around the brass nut. But that black plastic piece meshes via spline teeth with the big brass wheel marked #1 in this photo.

Is that thing, #1, supposed to be able to turn? Is that what turns the water on/off?

It seems like that might be the case. The nut, #3, holds everything in place. Then there's the big flat washer, #2. And the splined wheel, #1.

Except, they're all fused tightly together!

I put a big wrench on the brass nut. Holy jeepers that thing is on tight!

I was worried I might tear down the entire wall, but eventually the nut cracked. But it turned all three, #1, 2, and 3, together. And the moment the nut turned, water started leaking out from behind the splined ring, #1.

At that point I quit. I tightened it back up. It's watertight again. Phew.

I don't have any spare parts to install. Don't even know what spare parts are required. Still haven't a clue where to get 'em, or what to order. I don't want to take anything more apart as it would mean shutting down the water to the entire house until I can put everything back together.

So what's next?

 

[Ferdinand]

Here are all the parts that came off.

From left to right,

1. the chrome cap
2. the black knobbly plastic ring
3. chrome ring
4. brass screw
5. temperature dial, with white limiting pin
6. black plastic ring with temperature limits, and spline teeth
7. chrome sleeve
8. Rubber O-Ring (broken)
9. and brass C-clip

I put everything back together for now.

 

[Ferdinand]

Now the temperature dial swings smoothly through its limited arc, but that accomplishes nothing useful as the actual water temperature does not change.

And the bathtub faucet, shower head, and side jets, still drip.

Unless any of you guys recognize the make & model of this fixture, or have any suggestions as to how I could figure that out myself to order parts, I guess the next step is to call in professional help.

I'm stumped at this point.

 

[Ferdinand]

Edit: This bit is all wrong! My bad.

Oh cool. Looking more closely at the photos, I just realized something else.

The bump stops on this black plastic piece limit the arc that the temperature dial can swing through. It can only swing so far hot or cold.

But looking at the second photo below, I now realize that the black plastic piece is actually in two parts. (Nope. It's all one solid piece.)

The outer spline ring, marked by the arrows, meshes with the brass wheel, #1. But there is an entire second ring of spline teeth inside of that.

The inner piece with the bump stops is a totally separate piece. If not for the messy corrosion buildup, the inner piece can be pushed out and rotated left or right. The temperature dial is still limited to the same total degrees of rotation, but by moving this inner ring left or right several spline teeth, it adjusts whether the end stops result in hotter or colder limits. Nope. It's not merely the corrosion holding it together. It's all one solid piece. See better description starting on page 7 of this thread.

That's pretty nifty.

 

[CT-18]

Unless someone has worked on that specific model its all just hands on like you did it. It seems like each manufacturer like to design there valve different from the next guy.

 

[Ferdinand]

Unless someone has worked on that specific model...

That's kind of what I'm hoping for here.

If somebody would recognize even just the make of this fixture, preferably the model# too, then at least I could go contact the manufacturer for more info and order some new parts before taking this one completely apart.

Failing that, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could go about determining the make/model, as the only markings evident on it are the numbers stamped on the brass washer (#2), "47025 0797".

How about, what's a list of the most common valve manufacturers? I know of Moen, Delta, Pfister. Who else? What if I send an email with photos to every shower valve manufacturer asking if this is one of theirs?

I'm just worried if I do call in Jacques the local plumber, he will just pull out the big hammer and vise-grips to disassemble the whole thing then take the cartridge home with him to go search for something similar, leaving me with no water to the house until he's either successful in his search, or gives up. Then what happens?

The shower wall would need to be torn apart to cut out the pipes and install an entirely new valve body. That's not an attractive option...

 

[CT-18]

I am sure if you expressed concerns about not having a shower for days a legit service plumber could take care of you. You never know they may be familiar with the valve and have it working in no time.

 

[Ferdinand]

... concerns about not having a shower for days...

I could live without that shower functioning for as long as it takes to find replacement parts. If that's all that mattered I would have had the valve completely disassembled already.

The problem is that there is no shutoff valve to isolate just the shower. I would need to turn off the water to the entire house. That's a whole lot more awkward, especially if were to continue for days.

 

[havasu]

If I was ever rich enough to built my own house, I would have a home run manifold with individual shut off valves for every branch my water line runs to, hot and cold.

 

[Ferdinand]

The problem is that there is no shutoff valve to isolate just the shower. I would need to turn off the water to the entire house...

Seriously? I keep alternating between feeling really stupid and then having the occasional flash of d'oh!

I now suspect these things (#1 and #2) shut off the hot and cold water inlet supply to this shower valve, no?

Yet not one of you offered to explain that function?

 

[Ferdinand]

These are on both the left and right (hot/cold) inlets to the valve. I'm going to guess and say the outer one is the shutoff valve.

It has an allen-key socket and is secured with a snap-ring. The snap-ring is probably there to limit how far the plug can be unscrewed. If that comes all the way out, there will be water shooting everywhere.

But, if I wind it all the way in until it seats, that should shut off the water from that side, no?

If that's the case, then I won't need to shut the main valve to the entire house after all. That would certainly be convenient, as then I could take the shower valve apart.

The salty small hole in the centre of the big nut is where the screw goes in that holds the trim plate covering the hole in the wall.

So what's behind the "Big Nut"? Or do I even need to know that.

 

[havasu]

I've learned never to adjust or touch those settings. They are not there to be used as shut offs, but not to say it may work. You are going way over my head, and from only reading the professional plumbers replies here.

 

[Ferdinand]

They are not there to be used as shut offs...

Here's how I arrived at that assumption.

I'm still searching plumbing websites hoping to find a valve like mine. In the process I stumbled on these three images. They're not the same as mine, but they got me thinking.

Top to bottom, first one is a Danze valve without "stops", then one with "stops", then thermostatic with "stops".
http://www.danze.com/single-handle-3-4-inch-thermostatic-shower-valve/d155000/

Does a "stop", um, not stop the water?

 

[havasu]

I don't believe they will completely shut off the water. They are designed to only disturb the flow to get a good mix of hot and cold water.

Again my friend, I am not a plumber, just a good listener. I am dragging my feet hoping someone with knowledge chimes in here soon!

 

[voletl]

Those are internal stops built into the diverter so you can shut the water off at the diverter instead of disrupting service to other parts of the building tighten them up and see what happens if it stops the water good to go if it doesn't turn off the main simple as can be

 

[Ferdinand]

Again my friend, I am not a plumber...

Me neither (obviously). But I'm gradually learning.

Those are internal stops built into the diverter so you can shut the water off at the diverter instead of disrupting service to other parts of the building tighten them up and see what happens if it stops the water good to go if it doesn't turn off the main simple as can be

I've been working up my nerve to do this, one small step at a time. I'm really not a try it and "see what happens" type of guy. I prefer to step back, have another cup of coffee, and take some time to think about it and analyze each step until I'm confident there shouldn't be any bad consequences before pulling the pin on a potential grenade.

It's a good thing nobody is paying me by the hour for this job, eh.

My biggest fear was that I'd need to shut off the water to the entire house, then end up doing some irreversible damage to this valve leaving the house without water until it's eventually fixed. And since nobody has been able to identify the make/model of this valve, it might be a while yet before it's eventually fixed.

Anyway, now I'm convinced that I can actually isolate the water supply to the valve by cranking both those "stop" valves closed. That's a major breakthrough!

At that link for the Danze valve I posted above, I found this very useful document (see http://www.danze.com/file.aspx?DocumentId=4647). Again, it's not the same as my valve, but the Danze valve seems to function exactly like mine should.

On page 4 it has a diagram very similar to our shower configuration, with three separate diverter valves, except we have a bathtub spout, shower head, and side jets, rather than a handheld shower attachment.

On page 7 of their installation instructions, it says the "stop" valves are used to close off the hot and cold water supplies. Eureka!

And on the Danze valve the big hex key fitting, similar to the "Big Nut" on my valve, merely houses a filter screen. There's a full parts diagram on the last page.

I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really, want...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJLIiF15wjQ[/ame]

I wanna really, really, really wanna... similar installation and parts diagram document for my valve!

All of the magic is handled by the central valve cartridge, and apparently that's the only bit that's buggered on mine.

We have guests staying with us at the house, coming this evening, so further dissection of the shower valve might need to wait until after this weekend. But now I'm itching to proceed.

 

[Ferdinand]

The dirverter valves are just that, they divert water only. All your pressure and flow starts and stops with the main valve.

Well, it turns out that's not true at all.

I was hoping for some clue as to how to identify this valve, even just a hint as to which search terms to use, so I posted the question to my Facebook friends. A minute later I had links with exploded diagrams and parts lists.

I am going to need a new cartridge, as the valve is supposed to control the temperature, but currently doesn't. I will pull the cartridge tomorrow to confirm it's the right one, but I'm convinced it's going to be one of these.

Grohe 47.025.000 Grohmix 3/4" Thermostatic Cartridge

The valve body is a
Grohe Grohmix 34 419 Thermostat Valve.

https://www.chicagofaucetshoppe.com/Grohe-34-419-s/4933.htm
https://www.guillens.com/Grohe/gcat/ttcvcvgm/34_419.htm

Note the product description says,

Thermostat Control Only
Must use with separate volume control

That brings me right back to my original post in this thread. How do I get those triangular shaped handles off of the "diverter" valves, as those actually are three individual flow control valves, none of which are sealing properly.

I should be able to close the water supply using the "stop" valves integral to the central Grohe Thermostat Valve. Then, if I could only figure out how to get the handles off, I can also replace the valve cores on each of those three diverter valves to cure the dripping.

 

[Ferdinand]

Well damn, how about this?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2chBUVBrdo[/ame]