Bird Doo Head
Well-Known Member
That's very thoughtful of you Mitchell!
People who do small kindnesses for others really do make the world turn more smoothly.
Paul
Where Can I Find Closet Bolts For This Toilet
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People who do small kindnesses for others really do make the world turn more smoothly.
Paul
Bird Doo Head
Well-Known Member
The outside disconnect requirement seems kind of over-kill.
After that first disconnecting means, per NFPA 70, you now have to run 4-wire (for single phase) or 5-wire (for 3-phase) to the the load center or panelboard. And add a separate grounding bar. But, rules are rules, I guess.
This early disconnect means one more wire, larger conduit, larger fittings, etc. Plus, there is the nuisance of pranksters opening the main, as well as providing safe working conditions for scrappers to snatch and grab. On the plus side, you can now put the load center pretty much as far as you want from the service entrance.
Per one of my brothers, a retired big city fire captain, they never use outside disconnects because sometimes there are things still energized, such as separately metered heating/cooling. They also want the building, including the wall with the service, to be as dead as possible. On overhead service they cut the drop. For underground, they either pull the meter from the socket or lop the conductors at the CTs.
Getting rid of the Six Throws of The Hand rule in 2020 kind of makes sense. For example, if you go in an industrial building or larger restaurant or school and glance at the switchboard with dozens of disconnects or bus plugs, which six kill the service? They're often scattered, sometimes one or two in each column.
If fire was lapping at my back, I'd want to get in and get out as quickly as possible. (My house sure won't comply. I have two grouped and labeled load centers with separate main disconnects. The garage service is a 6-Throws situation. I'm in for a deep project if the rule becomes retroactive.) Oy!
user 32496
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Since this is a DIY forum, I'll defend the DIYer. I am not an electrician, plumber or contractor. I chose a different career path but I still want to be educated enough to either be able to do something myself (95% of the time) are at least be able to recognize the difference between a good job or a bad job.
I understand the pros have insurance and DIYers don't but my experience with insurance is that you're better off not having to try to collect from them. The insurance companies have teams of attorneys that are paid so the insurance company doesn't have to pay you.
I don't know what kind of incompetence would be required to flood a house when changing a toilet but I'm sure there is a case of it somewhere. I doubt it is common though.
Here's why I DIY...I can't afford to pay someone to take the time that I spend when doing a job. I don't have to worry about making a profit when I do the work.
I have been working on our current house for three years. I'm not extremely slow. . .we have done a lot in three years. On the other hand, my BIL (Brother-In-Law) decided to get a pro to remodel his new (to him) house. Let's compare. . .
There are all levels of "Pros". Not all are as talented as @Twowaxhack or some of the other pros on this forum. Some "Pros" shouldn't be in the business. My BIL hired one of the Pro's that shouldn't be in the business but my BIL paid this pro a lot of money.
My BIL bought the same vanity that we did. I installed ours in the bathroom I added in our house and the pro installed my BIL's in his (new to him) house remodel project.
The vanity was made to be free standing and not installed in a corner but both my BIL and us wanted it in a corner. The problem is that there is a feature on the side of the vanity keeping it from installing flush in a corner.
I took the time to cut the trim on the side of the vanity and make a spacer to fill the gap.
The "Pro" installation didn't take the time for all that...
I did the plumbing on our vanity like this..
The "Pro" did this...
Here is my transition in the shower I built to go from the Cement board/tile to sheetrock. I'm very happy with how it turned out...
The "Pro's job was so botched that he ended up putting a 1"x4" board on there to cover the transition mess...
The "Pro" didn't seal the niche before tiling.
The Pro built this shower. Why does the bench stick out of the shower?
I also know that the cement board on the walls extends below the finished tile on the shower pan. That's a guarantied fail.
If you YouTube "Shower Pan Fails," you will see a lot of the tile shower failures are pro jobs. That's probably because many DIYers won't attempt a tile shower pan (myself included). I used an acrylic pan with tile walls. It may take 10 years to discover the damage of a failed shower pan.
Anyway, I'm not saying to not use a professional. I'm saying to educate yourself enough to recognize a good job and how it should be done. After educating yourself, you might decide to do it yourself anyway. Follow code but avoid getting the government involved if possible.
I understand the pros have insurance and DIYers don't but my experience with insurance is that you're better off not having to try to collect from them. The insurance companies have teams of attorneys that are paid so the insurance company doesn't have to pay you.
I don't know what kind of incompetence would be required to flood a house when changing a toilet but I'm sure there is a case of it somewhere. I doubt it is common though.
Here's why I DIY...I can't afford to pay someone to take the time that I spend when doing a job. I don't have to worry about making a profit when I do the work.
I have been working on our current house for three years. I'm not extremely slow. . .we have done a lot in three years. On the other hand, my BIL (Brother-In-Law) decided to get a pro to remodel his new (to him) house. Let's compare. . .
There are all levels of "Pros". Not all are as talented as @Twowaxhack or some of the other pros on this forum. Some "Pros" shouldn't be in the business. My BIL hired one of the Pro's that shouldn't be in the business but my BIL paid this pro a lot of money.
My BIL bought the same vanity that we did. I installed ours in the bathroom I added in our house and the pro installed my BIL's in his (new to him) house remodel project.
The vanity was made to be free standing and not installed in a corner but both my BIL and us wanted it in a corner. The problem is that there is a feature on the side of the vanity keeping it from installing flush in a corner.
I took the time to cut the trim on the side of the vanity and make a spacer to fill the gap.
The "Pro" installation didn't take the time for all that...
I did the plumbing on our vanity like this..
The "Pro" did this...
Here is my transition in the shower I built to go from the Cement board/tile to sheetrock. I'm very happy with how it turned out...
The "Pro's job was so botched that he ended up putting a 1"x4" board on there to cover the transition mess...
The "Pro" didn't seal the niche before tiling.
The Pro built this shower. Why does the bench stick out of the shower?
I also know that the cement board on the walls extends below the finished tile on the shower pan. That's a guarantied fail.
If you YouTube "Shower Pan Fails," you will see a lot of the tile shower failures are pro jobs. That's probably because many DIYers won't attempt a tile shower pan (myself included). I used an acrylic pan with tile walls. It may take 10 years to discover the damage of a failed shower pan.
Anyway, I'm not saying to not use a professional. I'm saying to educate yourself enough to recognize a good job and how it should be done. After educating yourself, you might decide to do it yourself anyway. Follow code but avoid getting the government involved if possible.
Thanks for your input Ron!
DIY doesn’t involve payment to anyone. Once you start charging it becomes a business.
A professional Plumber has licenses and answers to a regulatory board. We also have insurance.
Cabinet installers, trim and tile installers are none of my business and are not a licensed trade but do require a business license and insurance.
A professional Plumber has licenses and answers to a regulatory board. We also have insurance.
Cabinet installers, trim and tile installers are none of my business and are not a licensed trade but do require a business license and insurance.
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Do you need a license in California to become a handyman? You do not need a California handyman license. An unlicensed handyman can perform a wide range of services as long as the scope of work is less than $500 per job (including labor and materials).
If the homeowner pays for all the material, then legally, in Commiefornia, the handyman can charge up to $500.
I'm like Ron, I have my plumber on speed dial. I know my capabilities, and will not exceed them
If the homeowner pays for all the material, then legally, in Commiefornia, the handyman can charge up to $500.
I'm like Ron, I have my plumber on speed dial. I know my capabilities, and will not exceed them
I’m a very experienced plumber and that experience tells me never to do any plumbing work for money if I don’t have liability insurance.
If a handyman doesn’t have insurance and is performing work that doesn’t require a trade license then one would naturally expect the work to be done for less money. That’s not comparing apples to apples.
The handyman is also putting himself at risk if he has anything to lose.
If a handyman doesn’t have insurance and is performing work that doesn’t require a trade license then one would naturally expect the work to be done for less money. That’s not comparing apples to apples.
The handyman is also putting himself at risk if he has anything to lose.
I know around me is a company called Handyman Unlimited. They only pay the workers beans, but the company is bonded and insured.
Bird Doo Head
Well-Known Member
Amen To That!
Where I worked, we had tradespeople from every, single trade- as well as from many craft trades such as upholstery and cabinet work.
We'd cross paths on jobs often. For some, I'd marvel at the person's skill. For others, I'd wonder where they bought their card. This was true in every state that the company had a group of tradespeople. North, south and east. Ontario, too.
It's nice to have access to on-line reviews & BBB reports for tradespeople. It really helps.
lookingforaquiettoilet
Active Member
Well said!
lookingforaquiettoilet
Active Member
If I were you, I'd be happy some guy on the Internet got a good deal & it went smoothly but obviously not that's not your mindset.Yes everyone, Keep hiring handymen and letting your friends and neighbors do your work. It’s all the same…….
Most of you guys different than the rest of the world, bad things don’t happen to you. Handymen are known for there great insurance policies and guaranteeing their work.
Most handymen, neighbors and school teachers have way more experience than professional plumbers and we just charge high prices so we can buy expensive trucks. I was hoping to keep all that a big secret……..
Did you want the install to go wrong so I could've came back and been like "Man, I should've hired a pro?" lmao I feel like you want that so you could've been like "I told you so!"
You guys were all amateurs before being pro's remember that.
There was a time where you did your first install, and I bet it went smoothly!This isn't eye surgery or brain surgery brotha. For that, I use the pro's! Otherwise some guy named Jesus does the job just fine brotha
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If I were you, I'd be happy some guy on the Internet got a good deal & it went smoothly but obviously not that's not your mindset.
Did you want the install to go wrong so I could've came back and been like "Man, I should've hired a pro?" lmao I feel like you want that.
You guys were all amateurs before being pro's remember that.
This isn't eye surgery or brain surgery brotha. For that, I use the pro's! Otherwise some guy named Jesus does the job just fine brotha
I could care less if you got a good deal, a bad deal or no deal at all.
Trust me
I think it’s funny that you think it’s over. Your house might flood later tonight, next week or next year because of a mistake your handyman made when originally doing the work.
I see it routinely. $10k-$100k in damages from a simple toilet line blowing out. It’s the simple things my friend that gets people.
That’s difficult for some people to understand unless you’ve had it happen. Play with fire long enough and someone gets burned and it’s usually the homeowner that left to clean up the mess.
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lookingforaquiettoilet
Active Member
You care enough to replyI could care less if you got a good deal, a bad deal or no deal at all.
Trust me
or is it that post count that you want to look cool? It's one of the twoAnd you know I'm right, you can't debate some of these points I'm making. That's why you just put an emoji here & there
Let me ask you this..
You were once an amateur right? before being a 'Pro?'
Did you flood any houses then?
I'm sure you did fine man
If I were near you I'd pat you on the back big boy with them 12000 posts
You just want people to hire pro's because you're a pro and I get that, if I was a mechanic I'd tell everyone to come to the dealer for that oil change!
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lookingforaquiettoilet
Active Member
It's definitely over. Let's see the details.
It's been 30+ days since the install.
It's been flushed hundreds of times in that period. (at an average 10 flushes per day, that's at least 300 flushes.. But yet I'm supposed to be worried now? That's a bad mindset man..)
You should have a more positive mindset.
"This job went well." "I like this toilet." These are happy thoughts
If the job was done poorly or the toilet was bad, we would know by now.
Also, let me let you in on this little secret.
I work from home and there's a flood sensor near the toilet. It was cheap just $34 well worth it
If there's a drop of water that hits anywhere near the back I get an instant alert.
You are literally comparing plumbing to fire now lol this isn't electrical stuff man
I've seen women on YouTube install toilets in under 30 mins. ( )
You want to make this job sound so hard to people and I'm not cool with that.
This isn't LASIK eye surgery!
You don't need 10 years of training!
This is a DIY forum not a forum where you refer everyone to a professional for a 90 minute job that my grandfather could do if his arthritis wasn't acting up.
See that guy's post above? He hired a pro and the guy didn't even do a decent job.
And my guy is pretty much a pro with a licensed company, LLC, this ain't some dude I picked up from Home Depot brotha lol
But let's keep at it. Your posts are like fear mongering "Your house could flood at anytime OMFG!!"
How come it hasn't flooded yet?
It's far more likely that you or I will be involved in an automobile accident or a home break in than a flood from a toilet swap.
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You care enough to reply
And you know I'm right, you can't debate some of these points I'm making. That's why you just put an emoji here & there
Let me ask you this..
You were once an amateur right? before being a 'Pro?'
Did you flood any houses then?
I'm sure you did fine man
If I were near you I'd pat you on the back big boy with them 12000 posts
You just want people to hire pro's because you're a pro and I get that, if I was a mechanic I'd tell everyone to come to the dealer for that oil change!
Think on this one really hard “ brotha “
The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
lookingforaquiettoilet
Active Member
Let me ask you this..
You were once an amateur right? before being a 'Pro?'
Did you flood any houses then? I love how you dodging the questions.
I would never use you as a Pro in my life.
With your reasoning, if I hired you as a Pro, I would still have to be 'worried' about the job because it's still not done right?
Even after 30 days & 300+ flushes?
LMAO
At what point would you say, hey this thing was installed right? Just curious, boss man
6 months?
12 months?
5 years down the line when the warranty expires?
Any more fear mongering posts?
Hey be careful driving that expensive truck!
Someone should let this lady know her house might flood soon
Kindly respond back with more than 2 sentences & some emojis if you wanted to engage in an adult conversation with someone else on the Internet.
I want my questions answered by Mr. Professional with 12,000 posts
1. How long should I wait in your opinion to say the job was done right?
2. When you were an amateur how many houses did you flood? A couple dozen or none? Floods are rare, let's be real.
3. How come it hasn't flooded yet? If the job wasn't done right
Anyone else feel free to chime in too. I don't think my questions will get answered by Mr. Professional.
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Have you been tested ? I wish I could help but I’m certainly not a healthcare professional.
Good luck to you, I apologize for triggering you. You should try to schedule an appointment to talk to someone who can help you.
I will answer your questions so maybe you’ll settle down some.
1. Improper installs can take time to show up. Might be minutes and it may be years.
2. I flooded a couple when I first started plumbing, 37 yrs ago. It’s easy to do and is very common. That’s why we’re required to have insurance.
3. Refer to answer number one. I’ve never said your toilet isn’t installed properly.
So there you are, your questions are answered.
Good luck to you, I apologize for triggering you. You should try to schedule an appointment to talk to someone who can help you.
I will answer your questions so maybe you’ll settle down some.
1. Improper installs can take time to show up. Might be minutes and it may be years.
2. I flooded a couple when I first started plumbing, 37 yrs ago. It’s easy to do and is very common. That’s why we’re required to have insurance.
3. Refer to answer number one. I’ve never said your toilet isn’t installed properly.
So there you are, your questions are answered.
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Ludington
Well-Known Member
I find the worst part of a toilet swap is just lining it up. The darn thing is heavy. Ive resorted to putting down wood shims, and then getting down to eyeball it. Then removing one shim at a time to lower it to make sure im close to center. But, im working on my own toilet not someone elses. And im lucky enough that i have a basement to look at underneath. But with a toilet, your just never positive that darned thing doesnt have a very slow drip leak.
Bird Doo Head
Well-Known Member
What you said above is so very important for us all to remember.You guys were all amateurs before being pro's remember that.
I get sad when I hear a trades-person belittle or make fun of someone who asks a question. We don't know how to do that person's job, so why should we make fun if they don't know ours?
I have just about every kind of electrical license, certification and bonding possible. I have a journeyman plumber's card, as well as a mechanical contractor's license and welding certification. At some point in my life, I knew Absolutely Nothing about any of these trades. Nothing! (Still don't about carpentry. I could never do the fine trim work that Ron Van showed above! That's talent!)
When I taught apprentices or classes, answered clients' questions, or simply spoke with curious observers, I kept in mind that once I did not know the answer to their question either. Treat others as you wish to be treated, right?
Paul
Please consider that two whack is a professional plumber. Look at some of his 12,000 posts. He has helped hundreds, if not thousands of people when a layman comes in here asking the proper way to handle plumbing issues, cartridge identification, pipe identification, and other shortcuts often used by DIY's here.
Yes, there are DIY folks, such as Ron (who I've known for years from other forums) and does meticulous work, then there are DIY's here who don't know what end of a screwdriver to grab.
Just saying there is a need for both DIY's and Professionals in this forum, and I appreciate the Professionals help here.
Yes, there are DIY folks, such as Ron (who I've known for years from other forums) and does meticulous work, then there are DIY's here who don't know what end of a screwdriver to grab.
Just saying there is a need for both DIY's and Professionals in this forum, and I appreciate the Professionals help here.
