Questions About Main Water Line Leak Near House

[MrChip]

Yesterday we noticed a small stream of water that was coming from the side of our ttached garage and draining to the street. It looks like we have a leak in the main water line between the water meter and our house. The leak is either in the concrete stem wall in the garage where the main line comes up and connects to our regulator, or it is underneath our front patio (which is flagstone on a concrete base) very close to the garage. Based on the water flow pattern we can see the leak is somewhere in a 2-3 foot section of pipe. We turned off the water to our house.

I have a scheduled appointment with a leak detection company (name not listed in case it violates forum rules) for tomorrow. They come highly recommended and I was under the impression they also did repairs. I have since learned that all they do is pinpoint the source of the leak, I need to find a plumber for the repairs.

I am pretty sure that the main water line is metal, not PVC. We are the original owners of the home, which is located in San Diego. It was built in 1998. If the leak is in fact in the stem wall in the garage, then the repair may be relatively simple and straight forward. If it is located in the pipe under our patio or near the garage, things are more complex.

Here are my questions:
1. I suspect that the leak is relatively small, like a pin hole, as the water was a small stream that was a fraction of the amount of water that leaked when a small irrigation line was broken a few years back. Isn't the main line under a lot more pressure before the regulator? I would expect a raging river if there was a major break. If I am right and the pipe developed a pinhole leak in the ground, isn't it likely that the 25 year old pipe could develop another similar leak in the future somewhere else? For this reason, would I be better off replacing the entire main line from the meter to the house? I estimate the length of pipe needed is about 25 feet.

2. If replacement is the best option, what material should I use in San Diego? HDPE, PVC, metal, something else?

3. Rather than dig up my flagstone patio, I am thinking we reroute the entire line so it is mostly under grass. There is a small flagstone sidewalk, roughly 3 feet wide, it would need to pass under. Couldn't this be done without demoing the sidewalk by using a horizontal drilling strategy with a Bullet Mole or similar product?

4. Any suggestions on best strategy and company to use, if allowed, is appreciated. We caught the leak very early and I do not think it did any damage to our home or hardscape. I will try and post a few pictures.

Thank you!!

 

[dmmsr]

Looks like copper which means it is easy to burst a new line. Basically they Excavate at two points. Typically at the curb stop and in the house where it comes in at. They hydraulically pull a new copperrèee⁴⁴ line through using the old pipe.

 

[MrChip]

Hi dmmsr,
Thank you so much for your input. I wish I was home to verify if the pipe is made of copper. I will ask the leak detection company coming to the house this morning if they can verify that. I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. It is possible for a plumber to pull a new line of copper tubing from the street to the house hydraulically without digging new trenches or holes along the path? What if there are bends, fittings in between the two points? Will the new copper line be the same diameter as the original, or will it be smaller? Taking a step back, is copper the best choice for a water main in San Diego where we are not subject to freezing but we do have earthquakes? How does it compare to HDPE (Which I believe we used last year to extend a natural gas line in our backyard - somewhat flexible, thick yellow plastic piping)? Finally, when you say excavate in the house where it comes in at, do you mean inside the garage or on the outside? If they excavate inside the garage, doesn't that mean cutting a big hole in the slab? Sorry if these seem like silly questions. I have never had to have any work done on a main line before. My goal is to fix the leak properly. By that I mean not only stop the leak today, but fix it in a way that we should not have to worry about it for 30-50 years. That is why I am leaning against replacing just the portion of the pipe with the leak if the rest would be likely to leak again down the road.

 

[MrChip]

I have an update. the leak detection company was just at the house. First thing is we learned that we have two types of pipe. From the house until someplace below the flagstone porch we have copper. Then we have PVC leading to the meter. The leak is either at the junction of the copper and PVC, or in the copper pipe by itself. It is hard to pinpoint because his metal detection signal sometimes stretches down the copper pipe and will give a false positive for a small section of PVC. Bottom line, to repair the joint we would need to dig up the patio. He suggested running a whole new solid copper line from the meter to the house, avoiding the step area. He also suggested using commercial grade copper, type K. He said it is the thickest while Type L is medium thick. There is not a big difference in price (retail $12/foot vs $8/foot). We would need 20-30 feet. There is a difference in skill level. Must get a plumber experienced with the "art" of working with commercial grade plumbing. Must be heated to higher temp and requires a learned skill to make solid connections. Now I will start the process of finding a plumber. In the meantime, he said it would be safe to periodically turn the water on to run dishwasher, shower, refill toilets. As long as I first slowly open the valve at the meter, let it pressurize, then slowly open the house valve. Do not open quickly to avoid shocking the system. And keep both valves closed when not using water.

 

[dmmsr]

Hi dmmsr,
Thank you so much for your input. I wish I was home to verify if the pipe is made of copper. I will ask the leak detection company coming to the house this morning if they can verify that. I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. It is possible for a plumber to pull a new line of copper tubing from the street to the house hydraulically without digging new trenches or holes along the path? What if there are bends, fittings in between the two points? Will the new copper line be the same diameter as the original, or will it be smaller? Taking a step back, is copper the best choice for a water main in San Diego where we are not subject to freezing but we do have earthquakes? How does it compare to HDPE (Which I believe we used last year to extend a natural gas line in our backyard - somewhat flexible, thick yellow plastic piping)? Finally, when you say excavate in the house where it comes in at, do you mean inside the garage or on the outside? If they excavate inside the garage, doesn't that mean cutting a big hole in the slab? Sorry if these seem like silly questions. I have never had to have any work done on a main line before. My goal is to fix the leak properly. By that I mean not only stop the leak today, but fix it in a way that we should not have to worry about it for 30-50 years. That is why I am leaning against replacing just the portion of the pipe with the leak if the rest would be likely to leak again down the road.

You would need someone to come our to actually sew what needs to be done. But they would pull the new copper through the two pints. Being copper and pvec it should be fine. Usually a problem exists when ot is galvanized piping. Soft K copper is only what we use.

 

[MrChip]

Hi Everyone,
I could use some more advice on this project. By tomorrow morning I will have bids from three plumbers, all with valid licenses, and high ratings on Yelp and at the BBB. Price will obviously play a role in selection. But I am getting very different advice on materials and strategy. First off, the last plumber gave me three options for materials (and will provide quotes on all three): 1) rigid Grasde L copper, soft grade L copper, and PEX). He said the majority of his water main projects use PEX because of its cost, its durability, and flexibility. He said the few that use copper use soft copper because it is easier to route the pipe around obstacles. It would also be easier to bore a hole under our flagstone walkway if the pipe we are using is flexible. Any thoughts on which I should use? He said regardless of choice, the pipe will be placed in a sleeve and will be buried in several inches of sand so that anyone digging will be warned there is a pipe below. The other question has to do with the pipe size. The builder originally used 1.25" PVC pipe that when it comes into the house is downsized to 1". Our whole home water softener uses 3/4" pipes on its header, so it is limiting the water flow to the house. We have not seen any problems with water pressure when multiple people shower at once. Should the outside pipe be the original 1.25" size or is it OK to save some money and use a 1" pipe since that is what is in the house? Finally, the last plumber suggested I hire a landscape company to dig the required trench (one foot wide by 18-20" deep) as that would be much cheaper. Thoughts on that?

 

[dmmsr]

For Water services in the ground I always go with k copper.

 

[MrChip]

Hi dmmsr, he did say he could use K copper but that it would add like $1,000 to the cost of the project due to materials and difficulty in using. If you had to choose between soft L and rigid L, which would you choose?

 

[havasu]

I've used soft L, love it!

 

[dmmsr]

Like i said I've always stuck with k. So I'm not one to ask. I stay with what I like. My wife hates my stubbornness.

 

[havasu]

Seems he is marking up the price of pipe. What if you purchase it yourself?

 

[dmmsr]

60' roll is around $500 to $600. 100 ft roll is about $900 to $1000.

 

[havasu]

Wow. I cringed at $100

 

[MrChip]

Stubborn can be good at times. I just received more bids giving me options for 1" or 1.25" copper of PEX. The copper they are suggesting is either 1" or 1.25" soft copper heavy type K. Are you OK with soft K versus rigid? He said they copper would be put in a blue sleeve to protect it from the minerals in the dirt. We originally have 1.25" PVC and copper from the street to our shut-off valve, then it is reduced to 1" lines that go into the house. Should we stick with the original 1.25" size line that costs $350 more than the 1" line?

EDIT: just saw your pricing for rolls. They are planning a 60 foot roll. Since you are quoting rolls it sounds like you are OK with soft K copper. They want to use soft to make it easier to bore it under the walkway so it can didge roots, etc.

 

[dmmsr]

Soft copper is better. I know at one time it was not legal to use rigid pipe under ground. I am unsure if that has changed. But soft is better for ground movement and durability. Rigid can pull to easily and is more prone to problems. But we never sleeved pipe. It was always direct burial below the frost line. All fittings also had to be compression. It seems like code has changed over the last few years with some of this. But my experience with k soft is once it was done we never had to go back. I'm not saying there is not a better product but this is proven and never had an issue.

As far as pex. I like pex I do not think I would trust it at all underground. If it were my house, which I've done it, I would put k soft copper. Spend the extra money and not worry about the future.

 

[MrChip]

Soft copper is better. I know at one time it was not legal to use rigid pipe under ground. I am unsure if that has changed. But soft is better for ground movement and durability. Rigid can pull to easily and is more prone to problems. But we never sleeved pipe. It was always direct burial below the frost line. All fittings also had to be compression. It seems like code has changed over the last few years with some of this. But my experience with k soft is once it was done we never had to go back. I'm not saying there is not a better product but this is proven and never had an issue.

As far as pex. I like pex I do not think I would trust it at all underground. If it were my house, which I've done it, I would put k soft copper. Spend the extra money and not worry about the future.

Thank you so much! I am definitely going to go with soft copper. PEX is off the table.