Well Pump Issue

[echo1]

Hello...we have well pump for our home and we have noticed it has been cycling. Today, I had time to go out watch the pressure switch (30/50) as we turned on faucets in the house, garden hose and the hose bib near the well pump. What I have observed is that when we turn the water on in the house or at the bib near the well pump the pressure drops, the pumps kicks on, the pressure rises close to 60psi, pump shuts off, pressure goes down and then the cycle repeats.

If I just run the garden hose it acts differently. The hose is turned on full blast, the pressure drops, the pump is activated, but the pressure is not rising high to cut the pressure switch off like the house faucet or bib near the pump. The pump runs until we shut off the garden hose. However, if we only turn on the garden hose only half way it does the same thing as above.

Not knowing much about pumps, pressure switch, pressure tanks, etc... I am not sure what the issue is. Any insights? Thanks in advance!

 

[Valveman]

Cycling is the issue. Lol! With the full open hose you are using all the water the pump can produce and there is no cycling. But that is probably rarely how you will use water, and everything else you do will cause cycling. Cycling is a big problem with an easy fix.

 

[echo1]

Thanks for the reply...what's interesting is that we have lived in the house for just about four years without this issue of cycling. At least if it was happening before it wasn't noticeable. Now it is very apparent.

 

[RS]

Does it ever cycle on/off when your not using water? The way to check that is to turn off the power to the pump when your going to be gone, and see if you have pressure when you get home. At our previous home we had a leak develop just outside the casing, the fitting cracked from the ground settling. The pump would start about every 15 minutes.

If you don't have any leaks anywhere then check the air preload in your tank, if you have a bladder tank. Drain off all the water pressure, then check the Schrader valve on top of the tank. If your switch is set 30-50 the preload should be 28 psi.

If you don't find anything wrong it's possible that your system is running as it's supposed to, you don't say how long the pump runs, or how often. Good luck, and report back to us with what you find!

 

[MicEd69]

The hose is turned on full blast, the pressure drops, the pump is activated, but the pressure is not rising high to cut the pressure switch off like the house faucet or bib near the pump. The pump runs until we shut off the garden hose. However, if we only turn on the garden hose only half way it does the same thing as above.

What you are describing is showing that the garden hose on at "full blast" is flowing more water than the house faucets and hose bibb. With that higher flow, the well pump is producing as much as it can, which isn't enough to increase the pressure to your set points. And then, when you close the garden hose to "halfway", that closer matches the flow to the house faucets and hose bibb, so the well pump is then capable of producing the flow and pressure to reach the set point. If this is something that has just started, you may have some issues with your well and/or well pump.

But as Valveman has indicated, while cycling has been the standard way well pumps have been normally operated for years, turning pumps on and off every few minutes is hard on the mechanical components in the system. Your air conditioner in your home cycles based on your thermostat sensing the internal temperature of your house. Depending on the heat input to your home, that cycling is in hours. But what if you decided to cycle your air conditioner every few minutes? While you would still be able to maintain your house at a cool temperature, you would also come to know your HVAC service people on a first name basis. LOL.

 

[echo1]

I had a service tech come out and take a look at the system as I didn't want to mess things up. They added air to the pressure tank, but then it started doing the same thing. So they came back and worked on the tank to see if the bladder was having an issue. They said if it was still doing it that it is possible the tank has an issue. It was better the second time around but still basically doing the same thing. If I move the tank around you can hear some water sloshing but it doesn't seem like much and the tank doesn't feel too heavy.

For kicks, I went out there now and took a reading of the tank's air pressure. It is around 55 psi. The tanks says 38 psi precharge from factory with a max of 125 psi.

The tank is a Flexcon Challenger PC66FR 20 gallon

 

[RS]

Did you measure the air pressure with the system pressurized? You have to bleed off the system pressure before checking the bladder pressure. With the system bled off there should be no water in the tank, unless the bladder is ruptured. Adding air to the tank should make the system work normal for a time, but it will eventually waterlog. I have been using an old water heater tank for a pressure tank at our cabin for over 20 years, it works fine without a bladder, but I add some air a couple of time during the season.

 

[echo1]

Gotcha...no I didn't bleed off the pressure. I will give that shot tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[MicEd69]

Again, from what you describe, I'm thinking your system is operating as best it can.

But to verify that, you need to establish the flow rates of all your fixtures. Use a known volume container and time how long it takes to fill up and convert that to gallons per minute. When you said, "when we turn the water on in the house or at the bib near the well pump the pressure drops, the pumps kicks on, the pressure rises close to 60psi, pump shuts off, pressure goes down and then the cycle repeats.", are you turning on one faucet in the house of multiple faucets? Figure the gallons per minute coming out of whatever faucets and/or bibb when the system cycles like you say is normal. Then determine the gallons per minute out of the garden hose at "full blast" that causes the well pump to come on but not build up the pressure to your set point.

I would expect the flow rate out of the garden hose at "full blast" to be significantly more than the flows out of your house fixtures or the hose bibb at the pump.

Below is a representation of a pump curve.



For argument's sake, let's double the "Head" numbers so it looks kinda like your pump and let's call those numbers PSI instead of Feet of Water. that green line is what the pump can do. At 15 GPM, the pressure the pump puts out is 60 PSI, and at all flows below that, it can put out a little more. So, when the pump is flowing anything up to 15 GPM, the pump will cycle based on the pressure switch settings. However, if the flow rate out of the pump is greater than 15 GPM, the pump can NEVER reach the set point of the pressure switch, and this will cause the pump to run continuously until the flow rate is slowed by throttling the garden hose, in your case, to something below 15 GPM. And at something like 21.5 GPM the pressure will only be like 40 PSI.

I will remind you that all these numbers are representative as you would need a pump curve for your particular pump. But this shows the concept of what I think is happening.

You may ask, "Why didn't the people I called in know this?" The answer is that they are paid to come out and perform a service. If I am right in my analysis which is based on what you describe, anything short of installing a new well pump will not fix your issue. But they can come out and tweak this and adjust that and get paid for doing that service.

If you really want your garden hose to have higher pressure, either only open it halfway or install an inline restriction that would reduce the garden hose flow rate and would cause your pump to cycle. But as Valveman and I have said, pumps love to run but hate to be turned on and off repeatedly and frequently. That is hard on the mechanical parts of the pump and the inrush of the electricity to get the pump turning from a dead stop isn't the best thing either.

What this representative pump curve doesn't show is the energy usage. As the work the pump does is moving water, the more water that is moved, the more energy/electricity the pump needs. So, when the pump is running at low flow rates, it uses less energy. This is where the Cycle Stop Valve comes into play. It keeps the pump running using less energy flowing only the water that is being used. Only when no water is being use is the pump turned off. A standard pressure switch system turns the pump on at a relatively high-rate flow to build the pressure, and then off when that pressure is met. A large pressure tank will reduce the cycling a bit, but the pump still pumps at a high rate to fill the tank and meet the pressure switch set point.

I hope this provides you a little more insight into "pumps, pressure switch, pressure tanks, etc."