Kohler Flush Systems

[Jeff Knecht]

Good Afternoon
I have owned several Am. Stand. Champion toilets and always thought they worked well. After moving I'm looking to replace 2 toilets and I'm shopping Am. Stand. and Kohler. Trying to keep the cost below $400 for each toilet.
Any thoughts on the AS Champion or Kohler
Cimmaron and Highline.
Specs:
Toilet #1. Comfort height, elongated.
Toilet #2. Comfort height, compact elongated.
Concerns: repairability, leaking and porcelain integrity.
Kohler Canister or AquaPiston likes or dislikes.
Added: Have considered a 1 piece toilet as I think they have less leakage potential and easier to clean but have heard that the flush valve repair can be a pain. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thank You

 

[Aloha Mark]

We have American Standard and Kohler in our home. The best toilet I have ever used is the one piece Kohler Cimarron comfort height. This has never clogged after 14 years. Only part that I needed to replace was the flapper. I ordered a new Kohler valve in case I need it in the future. Not of fan of Fluidmaster replacement parts as they seem to be cheaply made. The two piece Kohler Cimarron 360 Revolution is poorly made. The first one we got from Home Depot had cracked porcelain right out of the box. HD replaced it for free. While installing the 2nd Cimarron, the bottom (bowl) developed a crack when the contractor bolted the tank to the bowl. He ate up the cost of the toilet. The third Cimarron installed ok, but its flush seemed weak. When my son is done clogging this toilet, I'm going for a Toto to see if that will work better. Mind you, we have a new Cimarron 360 in storage, just so we can cannibalize it for spare parts, should the supply chain collapse in the near future. It is really ridiculous in this day and age that they can make reliable cars but not toilets.

 

[Terrill]

The new TOTO Drake CST776CEFG has always flushed well, and they do a good job at the factory, saving us plumbers time and effort by having a really good quality track record. The new Drake has the bowl finish I like, very smooth, easier to keep clean and I like the sweeps on the trapway. The last bend points the water flow downward into the drain. Nice. I do sell and install a bunch of these.
I might add, trouble free products.

If you're going with American Standard, then the Cadet 3 series.
Kohler Highline is nice.

 

[Aggie83]

I have an American Standard Champion and a Kohler Cimmeron, both purchased in last year. I think the Kohler has a better flush and cleans better. Hold the handle down to flush number two or lots of paper. Bought one of each for out buildings to use and then select for house currently being built. Right now I lean towards Kohler, but may have to get a Cadet to try it out.

 

[Twowaxhack]

We have American Standard and Kohler in our home. The best toilet I have ever used is the one piece Kohler Cimarron comfort height. This has never clogged after 14 years. Only part that I needed to replace was the flapper. I ordered a new Kohler valve in case I need it in the future. Not of fan of Fluidmaster replacement parts as they seem to be cheaply made. The two piece Kohler Cimarron 360 Revolution is poorly made. The first one we got from Home Depot had cracked porcelain right out of the box. HD replaced it for free. While installing the 2nd Cimarron, the bottom (bowl) developed a crack when the contractor bolted the tank to the bowl. He ate up the cost of the toilet. The third Cimarron installed ok, but its flush seemed weak. When my son is done clogging this toilet, I'm going for a Toto to see if that will work better. Mind you, we have a new Cimarron 360 in storage, just so we can cannibalize it for spare parts, should the supply chain collapse in the near future. It is really ridiculous in this day and age that they can make reliable cars but not toilets.

Fluidmaster makes kohlers ballcocks aka toilet fill valve.

I will not supply a toilet that doesn’t use a 3” flapper or a 2” flapper. No flush towers, no canisters, etc.

 

[Twowaxhack]

You couldn’t give me a kohler toilet.

Their canister system is IMO the worst on the market and that’s an accomplishment with American Standards POS canister being sold.

 

[Aloha Mark]

You couldn’t give me a kohler toilet.

You're starting to convince me. The thing that puts me off from using Fluidmaster is the cheap construction of their flappers. They seem to go bad in two years or less. At least the Korky's use better rubber. The right amount of buoyancy and durability make a big difference.

I did use the most expensive Fluidmaster kit last month for an ancient Kohler that needed the diaper gasket, but I'm counting the days for something to fail. I try to keep receipts in case a warranty claim is made.

 

[CT18]

I believe Am Standard has a larger diameter trapway than Toto Drake. I have both in my current house and both are great.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Here’s what I do to American standard canisters

 

[pakle]

You're starting to convince me. The thing that puts me off from using Fluidmaster is the cheap construction of their flappers. They seem to go bad in two years or less. At least the Korky's use better rubber. The right amount of buoyancy and durability make a big difference.

I did use the most expensive Fluidmaster kit last month for an ancient Kohler that needed the diaper gasket, but I'm counting the days for something to fail. I try to keep receipts in case a warranty claim is made.

I have the Fluidmaster 540 flapper that came with my AS Cadet3 toilets and yeah, they're not well made. They develop water blisters on the silicone gasket which raises the flapper just a bit so there is not a tight seal to the tank and the water leaks down. I contacted Fluidmaster and sent them pictures of the water blisters, they mailed me several new silicone gaskets which takes under a minute to replace (don't even need to shut off the water). I guess as long as they continue to do that, I'm fine switching out the gaskets. Or else I'll try the Korky flappers next.

 

[Jeff Knecht]

The new TOTO Drake CST776CEFG has always flushed well, and they do a good job at the factory, saving us plumbers time and effort by having a really good quality track record. The new Drake has the bowl finish I like, very smooth, easier to keep clean and I like the sweeps on the trapway. The last bend points the water flow downward into the drain. Nice. I do sell and install a bunch of these.
I might add, trouble free products.

If you're going with American Standard, then the Cadet 3 series.
Kohler Highline is nice.

Terrill
The Toto is a little pricey $400.
Which model of the Cadet 3 series do you like or all the 3 series the same mechanically?

 

[pakle]

I got the Cadet 3 from Home Depot (MAP score 1000) for all my bathrooms 5 yrs ago, and they still work great. They're also budget friendly at $159, which is just $10 or so more than what I paid back then. The previous ones from the builder would clog every week, and the Cadet 3 has not clogged even once for 5 yrs for most of my family, except for one particular family member who will clog it once a month. This person does not take in enough fiber so I see this as a medical issue, not a toilet issue, and they might be hard pressed to find any residential toilet that they won't clog with their diet. God-willing, they're moving out next year and I can get rid of the plunger. Personally I hope they move into a place with a Toto because I want to see if they will clog that regularly!
PS. Very easy to keep the Cadet 3 clean as well. Generally resists hard water stains with just a quick brushover. I only have to use the pumice stone for a deep clean once a year, which I try not to do too often because the pumice does slowly remove the protective finish.

 

[Twowaxhack]

If you get a cadet 3, get the 1.6 gpf.

I think Kohler has the worst flush tower in the business. I would install one in my home if they were giving them away.

 

[Jeff Knecht]

I got the Cadet 3 from Home Depot (MAP score 1000) for all my bathrooms 5 yrs ago, and they still work great. They're also budget friendly at $159, which is just $10 or so more than what I paid back then. The previous ones from the builder would clog every week, and the Cadet 3 has not clogged even once for 5 yrs for most of my family, except for one particular family member who will clog it once a month. This person does not take in enough fiber so I see this as a medical issue, not a toilet issue, and they might be hard pressed to find any residential toilet that they won't clog with their diet. God-willing, they're moving out next year and I can get rid of the plunger. Personally I hope they move into a place with a Toto because I want to see if they will clog that regularly!
PS. Very easy to keep the Cadet 3 clean as well. Generally resists hard water stains with just a quick brushover. I only have to use the pumice stone for a deep clean once a year, which I try not to do too often because the pumice does slowly remove the protective finish.

Thanks Pakle
I just read the Home Depot reviews and noticed that there were quite a number of complaints regarding cracking.
I realize there are bad reviews with any product but was surprised with so many.

 

[pakle]

Thanks Pakle
I just read the Home Depot reviews and noticed that there were quite a number of complaints regarding cracking.
I realize there are bad reviews with any product but was surprised with so many.

Lol I forgot about the cracked toilet tank on one of my toilets. Happened a couple years ago, and I caught it pretty quickly because I regularly check all plumbing for leaks. It was exactly as described in the reviews you saw - hairline crack from the handle on down, all of a sudden. I contacted AS support, showed them a picture, and they mailed out a new tank under warranty. I think I posted about it on this forum. The new tank had a fill valve, flapper, and gasket(?) already in place as well as a lid. Wasn't difficult to install even with my rudimentary DIY skills, and I salvaged the old flapper and maybe the fill valve too as they were still working well.

Not sure if the Cadet 3's being sold now still have this tank cracking problem (I read somewhere mfg defect?) - maybe one of the plumbing experts here can give their experience. But I can see why you'd want to stay away from AS because dealing with a cracked tank, even with a free replacement & extras, isn't fun.

 

[Jeff Knecht]

Fluidmaster makes kohlers ballcocks aka toilet fill valve.

I will not supply a toilet that doesn’t use a 3” flapper or a 2” flapper. No flush towers, no canisters, etc.

Which toilets use a standard style flapper system, the type that have been in use for decades?

 

[Twowaxhack]

Which toilets use a standard style flapper system, the type that have been in use for decades?

I convert Vorten 1.6 toilets from a 3” flapper flushvalve to a 2” flushvalve.

The flushvalve hole in a vorten fits a standard flushvalve.

The factory flushvalve is standard size where the threads are and where it passes through the tank but takes a 3” flapper.

3” flappers work but they’re more expensive.

I want my toilets to flush more water. This keeps old pipes cleaner.

I’m sure there are toilets sold with a 2” flapper but I’m happy with what I’m installing and my modifications so I haven’t looked for one.

At one time the Vortens were being shipped with a 2” flapper and standard flushvalve.

When you give a vorten more water it gives you one long flush and it’s AWESOME.

If a “ flush tower or flush canister “ flushvalve can’t be replaced with some type of flapper……You couldn’t GIVE it to me.

 

[TomFOhio]

Check out Gerber. You can get one with a larger flapper. We have the Viper and Avalanche They both work great.