Drain Field Failed during buyer's home inspection

[polaris26]

Hello all - I am in the process of trying to sell my house in PA and I had a prospective buyer who paid for a home inspection. The inspection report claims that the drain field failed (in that "approximately" 400 gallons of water were put into the system and a probe came up with moisture/water in the drain field area). Due to this and some other more minor findings, the prospecive buyer backed out of the deal.

I am not confident that the test was done 100% to regulation (I do not know the qualifications of the home inspector, and here in PA home inspectors don't even require a license). I noted also that the buyer's agent was also acting as the home inspector. I would like a second opinion before I give up on on the septic system since it would be quite expensive to replace.

For what it's worth, the system has not been pumped out in at least 13 years, but there has been only one person living in the house during that entire time (three bedroom house) with absolutely no observed problems with the drains or septic in that time.

I know that the lid was not opened during the recent home inspection, but I have no idea exactly how the septic test was done as I was not present when it was administered. I called a local septic system company, and they told me that a lot of inspectors simply run all the faucets at the start of the home inspection and then check the drain field at the end of the inspection, which can give incorrect results, as it should be over a 24-hour period and/or the exact amount of water isn't precise. Also ground water saturation could be a factor, etc... I am having them come out and probe the drain field, but I am not sure what that would reveal after several days have passed.

At this point, do I need to pay for a full (PSMA certified, in PA) inspection of the system? If I understand correctly, here in PA you cannot just repair a drain field, so if it is not draining, I believe the entire septic would need to be replaced (probably with a mound system), which would knock several tens of thousands off the value of the house.

Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated!

 

[Twowaxhack]

If you put 400 gallons of water into my drain field all at once then I would expect moisture in my drain field.



Get a real septic guy out there to check the system. That’s my advice.

 

[polaris26]

I just went back over my security cameras - from what I could see, the home inspection lasted less than 2-1/2 hrs from start to finish and it looks like nobody came back the following day, so I am thinking this is not a proper time frame to check drain field after 400 gallons dumped in all at once. The septic system guy I spoke with this morning told me it's 24 hours, and also he personally disagrees with the law about the 400 gallons, but it's the reg they have to go by here in PA. I am leaning toward getting a full septic inspection done by a qualified inspector, once my septic guy comes back with the probe data later this week.

If you put 400 gallons of water into my drain field all at once then I would expect moisture in my drain field.



Get a real septic guy out there to check the system. That’s my advice.

 

[polaris26]

So the plot thickens..

I had a reputable septic service come and check out the system - they had an electronic line finder doo-dad and ran some jet hose through the drain lines... finally found that the line runs from the outlet baffle back to a sealed box in the ground they are calling a seepage tank. I.E., there is no leach field per se. I had a guy come back this morning to drain it out and inspect it to see what else might be connector to that part of the system.

The lid to the seepage tank is about 3 feet underground, and the buried tank is maybe 6 foot by 6 foot and filled partially with stone and surrounded by stone and there is only one line which is an inlet line running into it. For whatever reason it is not draining out into the surrounding soil at a sufficient rate to accommodate the "400 gallon" test that the inspector did last week.

I asked the pump-out guy about having the main (septic) tank pumped while he was here, since it hasn't been in 13 years, and I was told there was little point since I would probably need a new system since the drain field/pit isn't draining, and that now I need to "knock 30 grand off my asking price to sell the house as-is".

Not willing to give up that easily, and already about $800 into this problem, I am looking at possible "Hail Mary" solutions. I came across some products that seem to have some faily good testimonials, like Roebic Leach & Drain Field treatment. I mentioned this idea to the technician who pumped out the seepage tank, and he grinned at me and said I could try if I wanted to... I told him - look, it just cost me $56 to fill my gas tank so what would it hurt trying a few bottles of treatment at this point? As far as I can tell, better than $30+ grand for a new system or knocked off my asking price?

So - anyone have any luck with a situation like this, or am I up 'seepage tank creek' at this point?

 

[Twowaxhack]

I think it’s time to install a modern system.

 

[Hamberg]

...Not willing to give up that easily, and already about $800 into this problem, I am looking at possible "Hail Mary" solutions. I came across some products that seem to have some faily good testimonials, like Roebic Leach & Drain Field treatment....

(disclosure: I am a licensed RE Agent in PA & NJ)

Here is the problem; according to what you've written above, the system has failed (to pass) twice!

(in PA) You will need to "Disclose" this to any potential Buyer looking to purchase (ANY private, public or trade sale). Remember, the Seller Property Disclosure is for your protection, NOT the Buyer's.

Furthermore, you are not selling as-is. Every home is sold as-is - contractually, the Buyer is purchasing the home in as-is condition at the time of settlement. That is why the Property Disclosure protects the Seller!

Not saying what part of PA you are in but in this Market I'd update the SPD (Seller Property Disclosure), include a copy of the report, relist at same price (assuming it was realistic to start) and just let Buyers know they can do inspections but you already know the (septic) System is old and at some point - may be a week or 5-years - it will need to be replaced. And let your Agent negotiate from there.

(again with the CYA disclosure: these are my opinions & suggestions on a public forum and not meant to interfere with any Agent/Client relationship!)

 

[polaris26]

I understand everything you are saying, with regard to disclosure, etc.

My problem is that I find it frustrating that people give up so easily, and casually say I should just "knock 30 grand off", when a solution costing 1/10th or less of the replacement system might exist. I respect that professionals know what it takes to get their respective job done in an efficient, lucrative manner, but some do not like to think outside the box.

Not being an expert in this area myself, what I have read about biomat formation in the drain field area, and remedies like aerator pumps and other enzymatic or aerobic biomat-breakup techniques makes sense to me from a scientific standpoint. I do not think something has radically changed in the surrounding soil or water table in the last 60 years since the system was installed. I do however see that the black film surrounding the crushed stone that is surrounding the tank is probably impeding the drainage, and that that film might be something treatable. Some claim that it is; others say they have never seen it work.

Being a "fixer" by nature has me wanting to get to the real cause of why my drain field/tank has the issue that it has. However, I understand that everything I know about the system will be disclosed in a statement, and as you say, let the agent and the buyers hash out the details.

(disclosure: I am a licensed RE Agent in PA & NJ)

Here is the problem; according to what you've written above, the system has failed (to pass) twice!

(in PA) You will need to "Disclose" this to any potential Buyer looking to purchase (ANY private, public or trade sale). Remember, the Seller Property Disclosure is for your protection, NOT the Buyer's.

Furthermore, you are not selling as-is. Every home is sold as-is - contractually, the Buyer is purchasing the home in as-is condition at the time of settlement. That is why the Property Disclosure protects the Seller!

Not saying what part of PA you are in but in this Market I'd update the SPD (Seller Property Disclosure), include a copy of the report, relist at same price (assuming it was realistic to start) and just let Buyers know they can do inspections but you already know the (septic) System is old and at some point - may be a week or 5-years - it will need to be replaced. And let your Agent negotiate from there.

(again with the CYA disclosure: these are my opinions & suggestions on a public forum and not meant to interfere with any Agent/Client relationship!)

 

[Twowaxhack]

It won’t pass modern testing because it’s not a modern system.

Sell it as is with full disclosure. Take a few grand off the asking price. The house simply isn’t worth what you thought it was because it has a failing septic.

 

[MicEd69]

I understand everything you are saying, with regard to disclosure, etc.

My problem is that I find it frustrating that people give up so easily, and casually say I should just "knock 30 grand off", when a solution costing 1/10th or less of the replacement system might exist. I respect that professionals know what it takes to get their respective job done in an efficient, lucrative manner, but some do not like to think outside the box.

Not being an expert in this area myself, what I have read about biomat formation in the drain field area, and remedies like aerator pumps and other enzymatic or aerobic biomat-breakup techniques makes sense to me from a scientific standpoint. I do not think something has radically changed in the surrounding soil or water table in the last 60 years since the system was installed. I do however see that the black film surrounding the crushed stone that is surrounding the tank is probably impeding the drainage, and that that film might be something treatable. Some claim that it is; others say they have never seen it work.

Being a "fixer" by nature has me wanting to get to the real cause of why my drain field/tank has the issue that it has. However, I understand that everything I know about the system will be disclosed in a statement, and as you say, let the agent and the buyers hash out the details.

First, I loudly second what Hamberg says. Second, now that you have indicated the age of your drain field, it is obvious that its life has come to an end. You say, "I do not think something has radically changed in the surrounding soil or water table in the last 60 years since the system was installed." However, something HAS significant has changed over those 60 years. For 60 years, septic system waste products have been draining into the soil under your drainage field saturating that soil, slowing the absorption rate of the septic system discharge. Once the drain field becomes saturated, there are no successful remedies to "unsaturate" it. There are products with various claims that perhaps seem to make logical sense, but they simply do not work.

I was foreman on a trial where a seller's drain field had failed after 65 years of service. The drain field was located at the lowest point of the property, and the seller installed a single 40-foot lateral on the only available area next to the drain field. The seller's agent told the sellers to list that "a new drain field had been installed" for the septic system. The sellers were not living in the home during the listing and had the septic tank pumped out. The buyers moved in and after just a few days they noticed their lower yard was rather wet, and it began to stink. After percolation tests were performed, the drain field was found unusable.

The buyers then sued the sellers, the seller's agent, and the seller's realtor company which was/is a very well-known company. The trial went on for 3 days. I was surprised that the defendant's lawyers kept me on the jury as I am an engineer. No one else on the jury had any experience or knowledge about a septic system, so when we started deliberation, I had to give a Septic System 101 class so that they really understood what had gone on. The plaintiffs won and were awarded $125,000 for a pumping station and the installation of a new drain field higher in the property. That price was determined by estimates of the pump station and new drain field installation, and operating costs of the pumping station for 10 years.

We were then asked to go back and deliberate for punitive damages. As we were walking back to the jury room, I heard several people say we should award the plaintiffs $1,000,000 as punitive damages. That deliberation took longer than the original deliberation. It was ultimately agreed that a doubling of the original $125,000 award, $250,000, would be awarded as well.

Septic drain fields have a life, and that is just a fact that people with septic systems have to live with.

 

[Aggie83]

I agree with Hambert, MicEd and Twowax, but am totally amazed at the price of a septic system! I am building a 2000 square foot house in Texas and total cost is under $9000.

 

[Twowaxhack]

I agree with Hambert, MicEd and Twowax, but am totally amazed at the price of a septic system! I am building a 2000 square foot house in Texas and total cost is under $9000.

There are many different types of systems. Replacing a failed system typically costs more than a brand new house system of the same type.

I’ve seen where the entire yard was replaced. 5’ of earth dug out and hauled away in dump trucks. There was no place to locate an alternate field.

 

[Hamberg]

@polaris26 is correct in his assumption they will require a mound system - at least around this part of PA (& NJ). Luckily, I haven't had to deal with them too much but the lest few I did have didn't Perk and required the (sand) mound type.

On the positive side, the Landscape Architects have been doing a good job at blending them into the property.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Biomat can be treated in some cases but the problem here is you have a system that doesn’t meet current standards.

Even if you have biomat and it’s successfully treated, the system is still not sufficient.

 

[themavinator]

Hello all - I am in the process of trying to sell my house in PA and I had a prospective buyer who paid for a home inspection. The inspection report claims that the drain field failed (in that "approximately" 400 gallons of water were put into the system and a probe came up with moisture/water in the drain field area). Due to this and some other more minor findings, the prospecive buyer backed out of the deal.

I am not confident that the test was done 100% to regulation (I do not know the qualifications of the home inspector, and here in PA home inspectors don't even require a license). I noted also that the buyer's agent was also acting as the home inspector. I would like a second opinion before I give up on on the septic system since it would be quite expensive to replace.

For what it's worth, the system has not been pumped out in at least 13 years, but there has been only one person living in the house during that entire time (three bedroom house) with absolutely no observed problems with the drains or septic in that time.

I know that the lid was not opened during the recent home inspection, but I have no idea exactly how the septic test was done as I was not present when it was administered. I called a local septic system company, and they told me that a lot of inspectors simply run all the faucets at the start of the home inspection and then check the drain field at the end of the inspection, which can give incorrect results, as it should be over a 24-hour period and/or the exact amount of water isn't precise. Also ground water saturation could be a factor, etc... I am having them come out and probe the drain field, but I am not sure what that would reveal after several days have passed.

At this point, do I need to pay for a full (PSMA certified, in PA) Total Home Inspections of the system? If I understand correctly, here in PA you cannot just repair a drain field, so if it is not draining, I believe the entire septic would need to be replaced (probably with a mound system), which would knock several tens of thousands off the value of the house.

Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated!

Hi, my building warranty runs out on my villa. Which covers all craftmanship done. Does someone know a competence Villa Inspector located in Bali? Has someone used one? Or does someone know, or an estimate, how much the cost would be?

 

[Twowaxhack]

I’d consider the system failed and I’d figure the cost of a new system into my purchase offer.

 

[MicEd69]

1) how does hydro-jetting work?

It's high-pressure water that cuts through debris cleaning the interior of underground items.

2) how effective is it?

It cleans things really well.

3) what are there chances the system will still fail?

Quite high based on the issues you've stated.

4) will this take care of the problem of not having deep enough dry soil- it seems the system is failing from both ends?

Not even close, based on what you have described.

5) what damage may occur during the hydro-jetting?

It could damage some of the underground structures and pipes if they are not careful or if they are in poor shape.

Bottom line is that you appear to need a completely new system. What you didn't indicate is the results of any percolation testing that was done. That would tell whether your septic field has become blinded. Depending on your soil conditions, 30 years could be the life span of you drain field. If that is the case, you will need a new drain field to where your discharge can gravity flow. If your land is such that gravity flow cannot be done, a lift station will be required to pump your effluent to a higher spot on your property. That means ongoing expenses and maintenance.

Good luck.