Anti-siphon toilete valve running

[jacoby75]

Hi guys,

I am new to the forums, and am a first-time homeowner. After years of renting homes with my wife and having someone else come fix everything that breaks for us, we are now trying to figure everything out on our own when things inevitably break around the home. It has been quite the eye-opening, exhausting, overwhelming, neverending experience. On the plus side, I have enjoyed the tremendous sense of satisfaction that fixing something myself brings, even when it takes 5 trips to Home Depot to do it (literally).

Most recently, we noticed that our toilet is quietly, slowly running. I have dealt with running toilets in the past, but never one like this. The house was built in the 1890's, approximately, and I have no idea how old the toilet is. It's a "Wellworth," if that tells you anything. It doesn't have the traditional bobber inside. It has a Delta "Anti-Siphon" valve. I've never seen one of these before. On the white cap of the valve it says "raise" and "lower" with corresponding arrows in different directions. But I'm not sure what I'm supposed to turn to raise and lower it. The whole white thing? One of the screws? And what would raising or lowering it do? I'm not sure why they chose to use this kind of valve. Maybe it has something to do with the age of the toilet, or maybe it was just personal preference.

Regardless, the valve appears to be slowly leaking. But it's weird. No water is running into the toilet bowl itself. There is no perceivable movement in the water in the bowl. It is just constantly running out of the little hose into the fill tube, very slowly. It never overflows, and we have left it all night to see what would happen. I don't know why it's running, or where the water is going.

Should it be doing that? Is that part of the "anti-siphon" process? Keep it running just a little bit so that it never backs up? I have googled the anti-siphon valves, including a search for "Delta anti-siphon" and "running anti-siphon", and have found no help online. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[havasu]

If you add a few drops of food color in the tank, and the color changes in the bowl, then your flapper is bad. From the looks of your old flapper, that is what I would replace immediately.

 

[jacoby75]

Good idea. I'll try that tonight. Thanks.

 

[pcride]

I would suggest just buying a toilet repair kit, for about $16 at home depot. It comes with all the items in your pictures and replace everything like new. It requires simply:

1) Turn off water to toilet
2) Unscrew the water supply to the tank
3) use a long flat head and wrench underneath and remove the tank
4) unscrew the float and pipe assembly
5) put in the new supplies same way as removing them
6) I believe these kits come with a seal for the tank to the bowl - replace that
7) adjust the flapper and chain as well as the float to get the right amount of water and to make sure the handle flushes.

Now you are done and should take about an hour, and only 1 trip to home depot and you never have to deal with it again.

One part is bad, might as well replace the rest as the next part will be breaking. The kit is like this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fluidmaster-PerforMAX-Complete-Toilet-Repair-Kit-400ARHRKP10/206478491

 

[pcride]

The other solution is to spend a little more, but a brand new toilet which already comes with all those parts assembled. All you need is a wax ring.

You could replace the toilet in half the time and get a newer/nicer toilet with newer technologies. New toilets flush better, they have better coatings and designs.

1. unbolt the toilet from the floor
2. remove it and throw it out
3. Assemble the new toilet
4. Scrap the old wax off the floor
5. Put the new bolts on the flange
6. set the wax ring on top of the flange
7. float the new toilet over the flange until the bolts are aligned and drop down slowly, press down.
8. You may want to dry fit the toilet first to make sure it sits on the floor with no obstructions
9. bolt the toilet done CAREFULLY so you don't crack the ceramic flanges at the base

 

[jacoby75]

I would suggest just buying a toilet repair kit, for about $16 at home depot. It comes with all the items in your pictures and replace everything like new. It requires simply:

1) Turn off water to toilet
2) Unscrew the water supply to the tank
3) use a long flat head and wrench underneath and remove the tank
4) unscrew the float and pipe assembly
5) put in the new supplies same way as removing them
6) I believe these kits come with a seal for the tank to the bowl - replace that
7) adjust the flapper and chain as well as the float to get the right amount of water and to make sure the handle flushes.

Now you are done and should take about an hour, and only 1 trip to home depot and you never have to deal with it again.

One part is bad, might as well replace the rest as the next part will be breaking. The kit is like this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fluidmaster-PerforMAX-Complete-Toilet-Repair-Kit-400ARHRKP10/206478491

Not a bad idea. Thanks for the feedback. Only one question, though. Is there any reason why they went with this kind of anti-syphon valve instead of a typical toilet fill valve? Would it have anything to do with the age of the toilet? Does it HAVE to have one of these smaller anti-syphon type units for some reason?

 

[jacoby75]

The other solution is to spend a little more, but a brand new toilet which already comes with all those parts assembled. All you need is a wax ring.

You could replace the toilet in half the time and get a newer/nicer toilet with newer technologies. New toilets flush better, they have better coatings and designs.

1. unbolt the toilet from the floor
2. remove it and throw it out
3. Assemble the new toilet
4. Scrap the old wax off the floor
5. Put the new bolts on the flange
6. set the wax ring on top of the flange
7. float the new toilet over the flange until the bolts are aligned and drop down slowly, press down.
8. You may want to dry fit the toilet first to make sure it sits on the floor with no obstructions
9. bolt the toilet done CAREFULLY so you don't crack the ceramic flanges at the base

I might do just that. We already replaced the ancient toilet downstairs. Although, I've gotta admit. I'm a big guy. And, without getting too graphic, I've been very impressed with this old toilet's ability to choke down whatever I throw at it. (Or dump into it, as the case may be).

 

[jacoby75]

So I tried to food color test, but nothing came into the bowl after a few hours. I don't think the flapper is leaking. Why would this anti-siphon thing just keep running constantly? Where the heck is the water going? Is that part of the process? Is that just how it works? It runs a little so that it doesn't back up?

At this point I don't think we're going to replace the toilet because in the not-too-distant future we're going to just gut and remodel the entire bathroom because it's a train wreck. But in the meantime I might replace the guts of the current toilet so it stops running.

 

[KULTULZ]

So I tried to food color test, but nothing came into the bowl after a few hours.

Try over night with a heavy blue die.

 

[KULTULZ]

INTERESTING READING

Why must the refill tube always be kept above the water level?
Last Update: Sep 03, 2002

A slight pressure differential exists between the top (at atmospheric pressure) and the bottom of the tank water. With the refill tube discharging into the overflow tube below the water level, the higher pressure at the base of the tank refilling tube (“hush tube”) allows an internal siphon action to exist for water to continuously flow (in a reverse direction), from the base of the hush tube through the refill tube. When this happens, the fill valve will continue to run to replenish the water draining to the overflow tube. Clipping the refill tube at the top of the overflow tube avoids the internal siphoning problem.

Considering Cutting the Overflow Tube Below the C-L Marking on the Fill Valve?
Author: Paul Bergstrom
Last Update: Jun 08, 2006

Cut the overflow tube only after you check that the water level you need (either as permanently marked inside the tank or what you determine is required) is at least 1/3 inch below the height that you intend to cut the overflow tube. In addition, it is good practice to test and verify that this water level provides adequate water for flushing the toilet and refilling the bowl.

NOTE: Some toilets produced before anti-siphon standards became common (and others in which replacement flush valves have been installed) have overflow tubes taller than necessary. These can be cut with no negative impact on the toilet's performance. The shorter height will give added protection from flooding if the fill valve fails.

SOURCE - http://www.cescobrass.com/newsflush.cfm?&sid=25&nid=77

 

[havasu]

It looks like the plastic tube in your overflow is too long and is siphoning the water out of the tank. It should not just be shoved in as you have it.

 

[jacoby75]

It looks like the plastic tube in your overflow is too long and is siphoning the water out of the tank. It should not just be shoved in as you have it.

I got really excited there for a second. I thought that might have been the answer. I raised the tube closer to the top of the overflow to try to isolate the issue. When I say it's "running", I discovered nothing is actually coming out of that little plastic tube after it fills the tank. Nor is it siphoning any water out (though it may have been before, because it was stuck very deep into the overflow tube).

So, to be more precise, it sounds like it's running really slowly, but I see no movement from the fill tube. The water in the tank is circulating slowly (I can see floaties moving in circles), which would indicate to me that there is a current somewhere. When I turn the water source off to the tank, it stops. You don't hear the noise. When I open the valve again, you can hear it again. Maybe that's just part of the anti-siphon process? The actual fill valve itself making the noise? Or maybe it's a bad valve and I need to replace the system.

 

[jacoby75]

P.S. I did try the food color trick overnight, and no leakage into the bowl. So the flapper is good.

 

[jacoby75]

Update:
Apparently, raising the tube did the trick. I just didn't wait long enough. The filling of the tank did eventually stop. Though it must have come from the valve itself and not out of the tube that runs into the overflow tube, because nothing was coming out of it.

Regardless, it did stop. After pulling the valve tube up higher in the overflow tube, the overall water level topped off at higher than before. It was about 2" below the top of the overflow tube.

All that being said, is there a recommended spot to place the hose in the overflow tube? 2-3" from the top or something? If I understand one of the earlier posts correctly, where you put that tube determines the overall water level of the tank. Something about relative water pressure. Sorry my "handiness" is so limited. I apologize if this is such remedial stuff for you guys. Thanks for the help!

 

[havasu]

I'd just replace your entire valve assembly with a Fluid master 400. It will set you back about $12, takes 5 minutes to install, and comes with a overflow hose lock so you will not deal with the siphoning of water anymore.