Yet another shower drain leak

[darrylb]

Hello All,

I stumbled upon this forum based on research of my current problem. I am hoping someone here can help with some ideas.

I rebuilt my bathroom, about 2 years ago. First bathroom rebuild, increased it by 50% in size, redid the plumbing (with permits and passed inspection after 3rd attempt...), and had someone else do the finishing work (tile) and had a plumber help me with the shower pan (custom).

Since this was rebuilt, I have had no problems. But about 1 week ago, it I saw a small leak in my kitchen ceiling. Above it, is the new bathroom. I cut away a large spot in the ceiling and found the leak to be right at the drain. The part that made me happy, was that the plumbing itself is not leaking. When I built the shower, we put tar-paper down to seperate the cement from the floor. I can see that the water is dropping off of the tar paper, giving me good indication that the issue is around the outside of the drain.

Upon further inspection, and testing, I opened up the drain (which is a Sioux Chief 3 piece no glue model (PVC with metal grate)) and removed unthreaded the top piece. WHat I discoevered can be viewed in the below pictures (before.jpg). pieces of the mortar was loose, and so I cleared it away. I didnt find any obvious paths for water to get around the drain, but I used a drummel tool, after I found the weaping holes and 'channels' blocked, and completely cleared them out. (You can see the 'after.jpg' below to see what it looks like now).

I screwed the drain back on, left the grate off, and tested thoroughly. I was able to get the dripping again. Further playing with it, I decided to stop the drain with a trash bag ,and hold 2 inches of water to confirm this wasnt a grout issue. (and i had remove dthe grout just around where the drain would be). At this moment, no water is dripping.

At this point, I am completely confused. Though I feel I have made progress in resolving this problem, it is puzzling that I was able to reproduce a leak one moment, but then retighten the threaded 3rd piece, stuff the drain, and find no leak. I am concerned that this is a temporary moment of 'resolution', and that the problem may popup again.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I am wondering if I should get plumbers putty, and put it around the threads of the drain, to ensure a secure tight fit, then regrout to ensure no water can reach the sides. I intend to use the drummel tool to slightly remove some of the tile that is close to the drain, so I can get a nice clean 1/8inch grout line around the drain, ensuring adequate coverage. Just wondering if there are any other thoughts, or something else I could be missing.

(Side note: In retrospect, should have routed those supply lines further from the shower drain... and wow, i used a lot of solvent! hah!)

Quick follow-up. I emptied the drain after 1hr of 2inch standing water, and it drained fine without leaking. Ran water for another 10 minutes, no leak. So I am wondering that when I didnt have the threaded 3rd piece on, and did testing, that triggered the leak somehow. Not sure if I should clear out the drains 'drainage channels' further back, or what-have you. Also wondering if I should put caulking around the bolts (three are slightly exposed--showing slight rust in picture).

Off-topic, I had dried that beam off, light bleach/water solution to kill any possible mold, and intend to use a high quality white primer paint on that area so if it acts up again, it wont absorb the water as easily and expose itself far faster by soaking the ceiling's drywall.

Thanks a lot any and all!

 

[phishfood]

I am thinking that your problem is farther up the walls than the 2" that you have used to test the drain to. Perhaps there is a leak in the grout joints letting water get in and flow down to the floor while you are showering?

 

[johnjh2o]

You have a problem with the shower pan. The pan is what prevents the water that gets past the tile and grout from leaking. The weep holes in the drain allow that water to go down the drain. Tar paper pans haven't been used in a good number of years. Go to
http://www.johnbridge.com/ there you will see the proper way to install a shower pan.

John

 

[darrylb]

Thanks for your comments.

As for grout being cracked somewhere else, I am not seeing any problems....but i will double check with using a water hose to get everything... There are some hairline cracks near one end, but when I tested them for leaks no sign of problem (they were submerged in the water test)

As for the pan, it could be the problem but please note that it was done as the city of Orlando code inspector instructed, which I had also confirmed with instructions online. The tar paper was just to prevent not setting mortar directly on top of the wood causing possible subfloor issues. In short the process used was... tar paper to delegate. Mortar placed, slopped and shower floor pan liner installed. Passed inspection, then tiled and grouted it. Sorry for short explanation earlier. Does that sound better? (BTW checked that site and found we did very similar process except for caulking the lower flange.)

 

[johnjh2o]

You have no pan at all with that set up. Tile and grout are not water proof. Most inspectors require the drain in the pan to be plugged and the pan filled with water before any cement or tile is installed. This insures that the pan is water tight. Not sure if it's required in Orlando but phishfood can answer that question.

John

 

[darrylb]

I believe I understand. Yes, the inspector made me fill it with water and evaluate after 45minutes. This was after mortar and liner, before tile and mortar.

 

[johnjh2o]

It would take longer then 45 min. for the water to get through the tile and cement and show up under the shower. Look how long it took for you to discover the leak.

John

 

[darrylb]

Thanks John.

The leak only occurs during a shower (and for a few min after while the water drains out from wherever it is hiding).

I take it you still suspect the shower pan at this moment?

 

[johnjh2o]

I'm sure that's whats going on. A shower pan extends 6" up from the floor level and over the top of the threshold. The only other cause could be a leak in the line that extends up from the valve to the shower head. This can be checked by removing the cover plate for the shower valve and look inside the wall to see if there is any moisture at that height. It's not something that happens very often.

John

 

[darrylb]

So, I can get 'with you' on that theory... if this were the case, wouldnt the standing water test prove there was a shower pan issue?

Thanks.

 

[johnjh2o]

The fact remains that you are seeing water leaking around the tar paper. The pan should be water tight up to the threshold height.

John

 

[darrylb]

Fair enough!. I will check the valve as you suggested, and inspect the subfloor a bit better tonight.

Thanks a lot for your time johnjh2o. As you could imagine, I really am hoping I dont have to redo the shower pan. Actually, cant afford it right now...

My guess is a new shower pan, including tiling is probably a $1200-$1600 job, does that sound about right? (i have plenty of tile to do the job luckily).

 

[johnjh2o]

I here were your coming from. None likes to do the same job twice.
There is one thing that you can try that may help but by no means is it a permanent repair. If you cut two V slots into the threads of the strainer starting about 1/4" wide at the widest point. This will help to allow any water in the pan to be directed into the drain. Hopefully before it finds the leak in the pan.

John

 

[darrylb]

Thanks, Yeah I just need to buy a bit of time, while I get my finances back in order.

I will evaluate the valve, and do a bit more testing before assuming new pan... but your definately making me think that might be the problem, which is definately unfortunate...

 

[phishfood]

Though it has been quite awhile since I directly interacted with City of Orlando inspectors, it is my understanding that they are rather thorough, so I doubt that the pan liner is missing completely, or was leaking when it was inspected.

I would redo the test, filling the shower up to ~ 1" below the threshold, and let it set for a couple of hours. Put the clamping ring bolts back in before you do this. If it doesn't show any sign of leakage at that point, you can rule out the liner itself, and go on to checking the shower riser, grout joints, etc.

 

[darrylb]

Yeah, my inspector was very thorough. During my plumbing job, and he did evaluate the shower pan before mortar was poured and sloped, after mortar/liner was installed, and after tile was installed/grouted.

This test proved to have a steady leak since moments after I started the shower. Upon filling it with water, the leak stayed a semi-constant. (over one hour, about 3-4 cups water). Eventually after searching underneath, I found standing water on the opposite side of my pony wall. This indicates the leak is at the pony wall (left side of shower). (Image of that wall below, including two images of the water found on subfloor from opposite side of pony wall).

I dont see any substantial method for water to come from the cracks within the grout, but the further I think that through, that should be impossible the floor getting wet from grout cracks as the liner is there to prevent that...At this point atleast, I have narrowed down where the problem exists. Any suggestions on how to possible determine route cause and resolve? I will remove the grout along the pony wall, and see if there is any signs of damage to the liner and if not, regrout to see if it resolves the problem. I am also thinking of removing some of the drywall from the back wall to properly inspect the plumbing from the shower head, as the view from the valve is limited---though the valve itself seemed dusty and not having any water drippage on it.

I appreciate both of your time, do you have any recommendation for an Orlando plumber (Is this something a plumber would evne try to resolve? or is this a tile specialists job?)? I see you both are near, but probably not close enough to review and give me a quote for repair (I live near Universal Studios)...

Thanks again for taking your time to discuss this problem with me.

 

[IFIXH20]

Darrylb, Remove your shower head, cap the shower arm with a 1/2'' iron pipe cap , turn the shower valve on , leave under pressure for 20 to 30 min to check for leaks at the shower valve, shower riser, and shower arm. Try this before opening the walls. Just alittle helpful Info -- When checking shower pans I use a 5 gallon bucket to get water from another source other that the shower valve to fill the pan , This way I know that the leak is the pan .

 

[darrylb]

Thank you, I will try that out tomorrow.

 

[darrylb]

Well, that confirmed it... I filled the shower pan up with about 13 gallons of water (about 2 inches of water) using water from the tub and carried over to the shower. About 30 minutes later, a slow leak started.... Just checked the pony wall that I can access from the tub service panel, and there is a bit of water.

Interesting, I am finding that it isnt always presenting itself as a leak when the shower is in use---Probably because of the duration of the shower...

Suggestions for whom to contact, and even an estimate as to what this might cost to repair, always appreciated... I am hoping the mortar slab is ok...but we wont know until we demo...

Thanks everyone.

 

[johnjh2o]

You have to remove the mortar to install a new pan. Hopefully not one made of tar paper.

John