Whole House Purifier - Low Pressure

Discussion in 'Pumps and Wells' started by otth2oski, Jul 4, 2012.

Help Support Plumbing Forums by donating using the link above.
  1. Jul 4, 2012 #1

    otth2oski

    otth2oski

    otth2oski

    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ,
    I have a cottage system that runs a jet pump to draw water form the lake. I have the pressure switch set at 40/60. I have a Vitapur whole house filter in the system.

    My setup is pump to pressure tank to filter to mainline. I am getting low pressure even though my filters have been replaced.

    I was wondering if it might be better to install the filter between the pump and the pressure tank, rather than between the tank and the main line. My theory being that the power of pump could force the water through the filter better than the pressure from the tank and then once it is in the pressure tank, it would have uninhibited flow into the main line.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Jul 4, 2012 #2

    IFIXH20

    IFIXH20

    IFIXH20

    HERE TO HELP Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    236
    Location:
    ,
    I have seen well system with the filter in the same location as yours. The filter has been replaced, but your pressure is still low. Sounds like another issue other than the filter. (pump,valves,check valve,etc)
     
  3. Jul 5, 2012 #3

    speedbump

    speedbump

    speedbump

    Wells & pumps; not a... Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Riverview, Florida
    Those inline filters are useless. Cramming water through them simply makes more stuff go right through. I don't know what kind of peace of mind these filters give you when drawing from a lake, but unless your afraid of choking to death on a snail, they aren't going to remove anything that would otherwise be harmful to you. If there is anything in your lake water that may be harmful, you might want to have it tested and get a real system that will deal with it.

    I don't know how much, but by removing the filters, I guarantee your pressure will be better.
     
  4. Jul 6, 2012 #4

    LiQuId

    LiQuId

    LiQuId

    Professional Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    , Alberta
    I agree completelly with speedbump. maybe Install a IR filter under your kitchen sink would be a better alternative and would do more to protect you.
     
  5. Aug 12, 2012 #5

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V
    I am thinking along the same line. I have heavy sediment in my well and am concerned it's possibly fouling my drain back valve, CSV and possibly pressure tank and gauge.

    Is it a good or bad idea to install a separate sediment filter before these components?
     
  6. Aug 12, 2012 #6

    speedbump

    speedbump

    speedbump

    Wells & pumps; not a... Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Riverview, Florida
    Do you mean like installing an in line filter in your well???

    The best thing to do is identify the sediment. I hear this term all the time on Forums and have to wonder what people are calling sediment. The only things I know of that could imitate sedimate is sand or particles of mineral collected on your plumbing then flaking off and going up stream.
     
  7. Aug 12, 2012 #7

    Jody

    Jody

    Jody

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ,
    As a professional well man, I would also identify the "sand" you describe. If it is truly producing silica sand, then you need a professional well man to re-develop the well or use a sediment trap. The latter is not a filter, nor will it fix your sand problem, other than keep the sediment from building up in the downstream components. The pump will still take a beating, including the check valve (back flow valve). That is why a well man would be a better alternative...below is how I would plumb the system:

    WELL PUMP WITH A PRESSURE GAUGE IN LINE-----SEDIMENT TRAP (42 gallon tall galvanized or glass lined tank with 1" port on top) on immediate discharge side of pump, with drain set up for manual dump (dirty water solenoid with custom timers available also)----PRESSURE SWITCH PICKUP AFTER SEDIMENT TRAP----PRESSURE TANK----PSI GAUGE----MASTER VALVE----PROPERLY SIZED SEDIMENT 5 MICRON FILTER----CHECK VALVE (back flow)----HOUSE.

    BE SURE YOUR PIPING IS NOT RESTRICTIVE...IF USING PEX, REMEMBER THAT IT IS ONE SIZE SMALLER THAN PVC FOR THE SAME RATING. 1" PEX IS USUALLY GOOD FOR MOST WELL PUMPS UNLESS THEY ARE LARGER THAN ONE HORSEPOWER. PEX IS NOT A BAD IDEA IF YOU HAVE A JET PUMP SINCE IT WON'T USUALLY MELT LIKE PVC. ALWAYS USE A PVC PLUG IN A METAL TEE FOR PRIMING. THE PVC PLUG WILL ACT AS A FUSE, SAVING THE IMPELLER, IF YOU HAVE A BAD MELTDOWN WITH JET PUMP. IF YOU HAVE A SUBMERSIBLE, THEN BE SURE YOU USE SOME SORT OF PUMP PROTECTION SHUTDOWN DEVICE (MONITORS AMPS GOING TO PUMP).

    DRAIN SEDIMENT TANK WEEKLY OR MONTHLY, DEPENDING ON HOW BAD IT IS. AS LONG AS YOUR PRESSURE SWITCH IS NOT ON THE PUMP SIDE OF THE SEDIMENT TANK, IT SHOULD STAY CLEAN AND FREE OF SAND. THIS IS USUALLY WHAT CAUSES SO MANY FAILURES WHEN ANY MINERALS OR SAND ARE IN THE WATER. A SEDIMENT TRAP WILL NOT DO ANYTHING FOR MINERALS SUCH AS IRON, AND IN FACT, MAY CAUSE MORE DISCOLORATION OF THE WATER SINCE IT GIVES THE WATER MORE CONTACT TIME WITH OXYGEN.

    FIND A WELL GUY WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE STATE GROUND WATER ASSOCIATION OR THE NATIONAL GROUND WATER ASSOCIATION. ALSO CHECK TO SEE THAT HE IS IN GOOD STANDING WITH THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU. SOME COUNTIES HAVE ONLINE RESOURCES TO FIND OUT IF HE IS LICENSED AND IF HE HAS EVER BEEN SUED AND FOUND LIABLE. JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTY HAS SEVERAL WELL DRILLERS WHO SERVICE THE AREA.

    JODY
    WWW.JPANDERSONWELL.COM
     
  8. Aug 13, 2012 #8

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V

    It seems more like a creek bed silt, not that heavy but am concerned about the components after the pump. I am installing a system (finally) now but was wondering if the valves/tank should be protected. There is a sediment filter included to use before the main filter(s).

    If the sediment turns out to be silica or very heavy, I will consult a well man. I am not 100% sure at this time of sediment amount.

    Thanx for the heads-up on PEX size! I have also read that the pressure switch should be before the sediment filter so as the pump will receive the correct pressure signal?

    If, once the filter system is installed, the sediment filter is prone to heavy loading/flow restriction, I thought a sediment filter such as LAKOS (shown below) would be helpful.

    Thoughts?

    Filter- Lakos Sandmaster_1.jpg

    Particulate Strainers (Bronze Y) for Drinking Water.jpg

    Particulate Strainer Grades.jpg
     
  9. Aug 13, 2012 #9

    Jody

    Jody

    Jody

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ,
    Pressure switch should be protected. We are not talking about a filter. a filter would be a bad thing to put between pump and tank. A filter becomes a "pressure gradient" and a potential dead head situation which can be disastrous...filters are last in the circuit....ALWAYS!

    LAKOS brand separators are good if you are dealing with lots of flow and little settle time. Lakos is not a filter. The average household uses 3-400 gallons a day or less. A settle tank such as a 42 gallon galvanized tank is cheaper and works better in most cases than a lakos. I have installed both...Lakos has it's uses....5000 gallon a day plus irrigation systems or industrial systems are good applications.

    Most 42 gallon tanks have a special hex key plug on top...rent a tool at your local hardware store for this one time use...tank sells for $149.00 at tractor supply as of today.

    Hope this helps...

    Jody
     
  10. Aug 14, 2012 #10

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V
    Yes, you surely have helped... ;)

    So no actual sediment filter but a device as offered by LAKOS or the tank you have suggested. The tank you suggest would be the more likely system to prevent deadheading?

    I will initially install the sediment filter after the tank and if stoppage(s)/pressure loss is severe will go with LAKOS or the tank you suggested before the drain-back valve and CSV.

    (And of course, if it is really bad, consult a well man).

    I am also plumbing after the tank tee with 3/4" Sch 80 PVC (originally plumbed after tank with Sch 40 CPVC) (builders plumber). The filter company supplied the PVC to run between the components. If I introduce PEX within the PVC (to more easily make transitions between filter types), you suggest transitioning to 1" PEX because of reduced ID of the PEX tubing??

    Again, THANX! It is appreciated.
     
  11. Aug 14, 2012 #11

    Jody

    Jody

    Jody

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ,
    Progression of components below:

    well pump--------42 gallon tall galvanized tank (from pump discharge, plumb into side port of tank, plumb a drain on very bottom, plug the center port and take hex fitting or plug out of top and plumb out of top of galvanized tank straight to bladder or pressure tank (this is where pressure switch should pick up)-----bladder tank---master valve---filter----house...

    The idea is to keep the sand from getting to the pressure switch and impacting the bladder (sand acts like little knives in a bladder tank).

    Good advice is to limit the amount of PVC in the system. PVC is brittle over time, Pex is not. I despise PVC except for well casing and deep underground installations ( of which I usually sleeve in order to replace later easily)...

    Being a well guy, and seeing homeowners who do it themselves, It is very difficult to see some of the "riggings" and botched plumbing jobs out there, but I am a firm believer in the free spirit of the American Citizen. Plan well, and save the money that a well man or plumber may charge! At least you'll appreciate what we do!

    Jody
     
  12. Aug 14, 2012 #12

    speedbump

    speedbump

    speedbump

    Wells & pumps; not a... Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Riverview, Florida
    I occasionally use a 9 X 48" softener tank with a 50# bag of silica sand and a manual backwash that we put together here. This makes a great sand filter and catches everything that isn't dissolved in the water.
     
  13. Aug 15, 2012 #13

    Jody

    Jody

    Jody

    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    ,
    I too have sold that very thing years ago...I haven't sold a manual backwash in 20 years...They do work, if your homeowner is into a little maintenance every few days. I guess if someone requested one, I would sell it. The WWII generation, which is dying off, was big into cheap with a little maintenance. The hippy generation wants fast and easy, and usually that means $$$.

    I will sell a Fleck 2510 backwash with gravel, sand and anthracite, which helps break up coagulated iron as it passes through. Another trick is to use some "metal media", which is heavy and must be backwashed with a minimum of 12 gpm for a 9" x 48" (trade name is KDF). How it works is, it sets up an electrical charge in the media bed that does not allow bacteria to grow. Once a year, I flush the well with Potassium Permanganate which will sterilize the entire system, and puts this nice pink dye all through the system until it is flushed. The light application of this chemical is better than chlorine and safer too.

    My experience has grown through trying to fix shallow water, when most places they would just drill a deep well, but unfortunately, our aquifer is polluted with high levels of sodium chloride. Now, instead of trying to treat 8ppm of iron and 20 grains of hardness with low pH, I drill a deep well and sell a whole house reverse osmosis...a lot better water and less maintenance.

    Jody
    www.jpandersonwell.com
     
  14. Aug 15, 2012 #14

    speedbump

    speedbump

    speedbump

    Wells & pumps; not a... Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Riverview, Florida
    I have never used KDF although I have heard good things about it. Our water here is decent, it has iron, hardness and sulphur in differing levels, but it's good safe water. The shallow wells (15 to 25') are nasty in farming areas because of pesticides etc. The PH is around 5.5 and soft as can be. Problem is, getting rid of those chemicals just isn't cost effective. Some of the people using those wells probably glow in the dark.

    I am very familiar with Pot Per. I like the pink in the water much better than the brown on my hands. My wife discovered that lemon juice removes it quite nicely from your skin.

    The manual filters are easy to put together and with a few ball valves and some tees and ells, they have an inexpensive sand filter. The one I used at my old house for keeping lime chunks out of my ground water heat pump solonoid valve only needed backwashing twice a year or so.
     
  15. Feb 14, 2013 #15

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V
    First off, I want to apologize to the OP for hi-jacking his thread... :eek:

    The system I finally decided to use (will see ID in attached photos) came with a basic PVC SCH 80 install kit. It consists of what I believe to be quality components (SPEARS -KBI- HARVEY) and I sourced these manufacturers for all needed additional tubing/fittings.

    I did install a section of 3/4" PEX as I ran low of materials and all of this is temp anyways and will be re-plumbed when the basement is remodeled.

    Please be kind as to your evaluation(s) of the install-

    As you can see, the sediment filter is heavy after only a few weeks. I have pressure gauges installed after every component (yes, I am anal) to monitor pressure drop.

    I am still concerned about sediment before the sediment filter. I will post those questions on a new thread to prevent confusion.

    BTW- The post filter is filled with carbon. I can discern no other fouling. I flushed the main filter on the stand so as not to introduce either sediment or iron (manufacturer suggested flushing free-standing). I obviously did not flush all carbon properly and will change this filter.

    I am thinking of going completely with 1" PEX on the final install.

    (6) Installing Filter System_6.jpg

    (7) Installed_2 (Sediment Filter)_1.jpg

    (7) Installed_3 (Post Filter).jpg

    (6) Installing Filter System_5.jpg
     
  16. Feb 15, 2013 #16

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V
    You guys are snickering, right...? :confused:
     
  17. Feb 15, 2013 #17

    speedbump

    speedbump

    speedbump

    Wells & pumps; not a... Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Riverview, Florida
    There is nothing in your setup that I would have used.

    I think you could have cut down a bit on the 45's and 90's. That's a lot of friction loss going through all those fittings not to mention those useless inline filters.
     
  18. Feb 15, 2013 #18

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V
    Even if they are useless, they are doing one fine job... ;)

    Even I did not believe the difference they could make/made.

    To have plumbed it all in a straight line would have required much more wall space than I have. And the ninety ells are wide turn. I see no pressure drop. I was more concerned there with the 5' section of 3/4" PEX.
     
  19. Feb 15, 2013 #19

    speedbump

    speedbump

    speedbump

    Wells & pumps; not a... Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Riverview, Florida
    OK, whatever... What else can I say. Your happy, that's all that matters.
     
  20. Feb 15, 2013 #20

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

    Jack of All Trades ~ Master of None Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,534
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    Between Lost And Found, W (BY GOD) V
    'Ya know... :rolleyes:

    (And I am going to stop reading here so if this is deleted, so be it...)

    When I first came here, your opinion(s) were only that water does not require filtering and anyone that thinks so is a moron. And then it becomes known that you offer your own system of filtering. Which is it, filtering/treatment or no?

    All I know is that it is required or one would not be able to use the water as if it did not kill you from drinking/cooking or bathing, it would surely ruin the home plumbing.

    Municipal water is treated. When I was a kid, one could drink from springs. I would not try it in today's environment.
     

Share This Page