What is this thing, anyway?

[redwoodchoirs]

The plumber put this thing in without asking. When I saw it and asked what it was, he answered but now I cannot remember. He said it was necessary to be up to code in the state of Nevada. He charged me $200 but did not show an invoice. Is this reasonable? I paid $285 for the whole WH, but I know I got a deal.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jeff Handy]

What thing?

Is there a picture?

 

[redwoodchoirs]

Yes, I uploaded it but then got an error message. I was just now trying to re-post. But here's the pic.

 

[redwoodchoirs]

To clarify, I paid $285 plus tax for the brand-new, USA-built water heater. I am supposed to pay the plumber $545 for installation which includes this apparatus above the WH. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Expansion tank, required in some areas, especially if you have a backflow preventer or pressure reducing valve on the incoming water supply.

 

[redwoodchoirs]

Expansion tank, required in some areas, especially if you have a backflow preventer or pressure reducing valve on the incoming water supply.

Thank you. The house was built in 1996 so it probably doesn't have a backflow preventer. It might have the pressure reducing valve and in fact that is one thing I want to do, go down into the crawl space and look for it... because the water pressure to the back of the house is really low, so maybe we have one and it is faulty!
Anyway, I saw a YouTube video explaining expansion tanks and it looks like a good idea to have one. $200 I really doubt he paid though, I'm seeing prices of $30 - $109, though there are some that are much more expensive.
He's already annoyed with me because I mentioned that he rounded up the labor hours... but I think it's my right to ask to see the invoice for the expansion tank, don't you?
Of course if then I see it really is so expensive, I will feel bad... wish I could see the exact model but I am not there now and all I have is this photo.

 

[SHEPLMBR]

You got a decent price. I deal with plumbers all day every day. When a water heater goes out the door, so does an expansion tank.

 

[redwoodchoirs]

Thanks ShePlmbr! Kudos to you. I am toying with the idea of becoming a plumber myself. I'm a teacher, unemployed though, good references and education but nobody is hiring me! Age discrimination.

So, are you suggesting I just pay his bill no questions, or should I at least ask brand & model of the expansion tank, or an invoice? $200 definitely one of the pricey ones...

 

[GReynolds929]

Thanks ShePlmbr! Kudos to you. I am toying with the idea of becoming a plumber myself. I'm a teacher, unemployed though, good references and education but nobody is hiring me! Age discrimination.

So, are you suggesting I just pay his bill no questions, or should I at least ask brand & model of the expansion tank, or an invoice? $200 definitely one of the pricey ones...

Not suggesting you just pay his bill, but you do realize that the $200 is not the price of the tank, right? There’s parts, labor, inventory, maintenance, taxes, taxes, taxes, license fees,, knowledge, experience, etc....point is you’re not paying for the part, you’re paying for someone with the knowledge, and experience to do it for you.

 

[redwoodchoirs]

No, he charged labor and parts separately. The knowledge and experience is included in the labor fee, which is about five times higher than what I get in my job that took me eight years of university study to get (B/A, masters, + credentials). So he better be knowledgable. Inventory & maintenance? What maintenance? If I need maintenance I'm going to have to pay him again. Taxes? We all pay taxes. I pay all of mine. The part is the part. If he gave me a $109 part and charged me $200, that's fraud.

 

[SHEPLMBR]

Thanks ShePlmbr! Kudos to you. I am toying with the idea of becoming a plumber myself. I'm a teacher, unemployed though, good references and education but nobody is hiring me! Age discrimination.

So, are you suggesting I just pay his bill no questions, or should I at least ask brand & model of the expansion tank, or an invoice? $200 definitely one of the pricey ones...

it's like when you go to the hospital. They give you a Tylenol and charge you $10 for the pill.

 

[redwoodchoirs]

You nailed it. When my dad was in the hospital, there was a $218 charge on the bill for "bedside medication," which was, exactly, a tiny bottle of aspirin or ibuprofen or Tylenol, and nobody had asked for it.

 

[Valveman]

We sell those expansion tanks for 75 bucks which includes $25 for freight. The 10 dollar aspirin is a good analogy as there is more to it, and you didn't even know what it was. If you can research these things before you can save some money. But when the water heater or water is out, there is little time to argue with the plumber when he/she is standing there with a new one ready to get you back to working.

 

[redwoodchoirs]

I got up the nerve to ask him for an invoice. He sent a list with about six items that totaled over $200 --
1) 3/4in lead free ball valve $19.80
1) 3/4in copper tee, mip, dip, and two 3/4 90 $23.76
1) thermo expansion tank $42.62
2) 3/4 x 24in water heater flex $47.08
1) water heater strap kit $35.18
1) 1/2in gas cock w/18in flex $32.83
1) 4in adjustable ell $7.24
1ft 3/4in copper pipe $1.50

So, while I was right in seeing that the expansion tank wasn't worth $200, he had been honest. Of course if he had itemized these things on the bill the question would never have come up.
Also, what had made me watch my guard is that he rounded UP the time he spent to four hours, when it had been 3 hours 45 minutes including the 15 he had spent sitting in his truck preparing the invoice. That ticked me off and made me feel he was trying to take advantage of me. Btw, I'm female, and my spouse was nowhere around...
Anyway, water under the bridge. Next time I deal with a professional in such a situation, I will be very clear about the start and finish time, sending a text to confirm it. Nobody wants to just give away $40 extra for rounding up. If he were so rich and generous, he could round down that much.

Thank you to all who responded.

 

[Rickyman]

That’s why a lot of plumbers switched to flat rate. Don’t need to write down an itemized list to be scrutinized over parts costs and don’t have homeowners watching with a stopwatch.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Exactly.

If I was bidding that job, I would give a firm price, adding in a small safety cushion, but also would inform and allow for unseen or hidden problems or expenses, change orders, etc.

My final bill would show a total for materials, labor, and then misc. if anything not in my bid got added.
The breaking out of materials total is for my benefit, for taxes.
Nothing itemized.

I only give itemized bills for jobs that are done on a time and materials basis.

And I charge for shopping time, whether it is going to Home Depot etc, or scouring the internet for hard to find weird parts.

 

[Jeff Handy]

I know you are afraid of being ripped off, especially as a woman and you have a point there.

But if I was that plumber, after I gave you that itemized list, which took time to pull together, I would say that you are implying that you don’t trust me, and that will be a problem in the future.

 

[fixitron]

I charge for one-way travel time. If I have 4 troubleshoot/repair jobs to go to in a day and it takes 15 minutes to drive between each, I have spent an hour in my truck. My hourly rate and material markup covers my time for invoicing, ordering and fixed costs of running an office and business. Some contractors only do new installations, so they don't have to deal with travel time (or dealing with nickel-dime clients).

 

[TomFOhio]

$830.00 for a water heater installation is a good price now a days. Most plumbing companies will install a expansion
tank if it doesn't have one. They also usually give a installed price upfront. We never broke down a bill. Now that
you questioned his honesty you will probably have to call someone else the next time. Not everybody takes advantage
of a woman customer.

 

[Riickk]

Hummmmm.

• $545 - Total
• $200 - Parts
• $345 - Labor

Time - per Homeowner: 3hrs 45 min
At $100/hr = $345.00 = Labor as shown above

Bottom line - No rounding up of time / labor charge.
.