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Mitchell-DIY-Guy

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I'm in the same boat. I want to install a Generac auto-start generator at my house. This in itself is $8000, plus installation. I first need to upgrade my panel to a 200 amp, which is about $4000. I also need 2-3 ground rods, which means jacking up concrete, which is another $2000, and run a 6 gauge shielded ground line to the water main, another $2000, a 10' stucco cut and more concrete cutting, stucco patch. All said, it will be about $20,000 to $25,000.
Ridiculous just for a power standby.
Some years ago when I owned the car wash, by "driveway apron" (the patch of concrete from the road to the sidewalk, it measured about 10' deep and 20' wide) had seriously deteriorated at the control joints cut at the midway point of length and width. So, I thought, let's do this right. I thought about cutting the concrete on either side of the joints, maybe a swath about 12" wide in length and width. Then put in new reinforced concrete, and cut new joints. Similar to the way they repair concrete roads when the joints deteriorate.

So I called a concrete guy or guys; the people to DO and SELL you this kind of work. They said: "Don't do it." "Why, I asked..."

"If we do this, we'll have to get a permit to bust out and removed concrete. We'll have to get a permit to replace it. As this is a state maintained road, it could take two years to get the permitting process complete. They'll make you bring the apron up to code, which it doesn't meet now. I could easily see this taking 2 years, and costing close to $100K by the time you are done. So, what you should do is stop calling concrete guys. Buy cold patch at Home Depot, it's $5/bag. Keep filling the holes with that..."
 

Mitchell-DIY-Guy

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What size breaker or fuse is protecting the 10-2 from that old panel to your new sub panel ?
The 10-2 is connected to screw terminals on the buss bar, and then this feeds the 30A breaker. Nothing "protects" the wire other than the main 100A cartridge fuses.
It's the same kind of question as "what's protecting the fuse block from the buss bar" and the answer is nothing other than the main.

When there's no load on "sub system" there's no load, and no issue. When there is a load, or an overload in the system, the breaker pops. Then the connection from the sub panel to the buss bars is drawing no load.

Is this totally legit? Probably not. But the whole electrical panel is 50 year old junk that should be replaced. That we know.
 
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Twowaxhack

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The 10-2 is connected to screw terminals on the buss bar, and then this feeds the 30A breaker. Nothing "protects" the wire other than the main 100A breaker.
It's the same kind of question as "what's protecting the fuse block from the buss bar" and the answer is nothing other than the main.

When there's no load on "sub system" there's no load, and no issue. When there is a load, or an overload in the system, the breaker pops. Then the connection from the sub panel to the buss bars is drawing no load.

Is this totally legit? Probably not. But the whole electrical panel is 50 year old junk that should be replaced. That we know.
If you get a chance run that 10-2 through some conduit from the main to the sub panel. It might glow like a lightbulb one day.
 

Zanne

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I don't even know what a buss bar is. I keep picturing a place where Greyhounds pull in for passengers and drivers to get drinks or something. LOL.
I could probably look it up but I'm exhausted. Not as exhausted as my friend (who happens to be named Mitch) who climbed the antenna tower and mounted the satellite to the side on a J-pole mount. We ditched the 10' pole (will have to find use for it somewhere else at some point) and use the original pole we put it on attached to the J-pole. It's up and working. Weather says it "feels like 99°" so we were all sweating. I climbed the ladder to hand him stuff. His work called him and asked what he was doing. "I'm on the side of an antenna tower!" and they asked him if he could drop what he was doing and come in. He told them how to fix whatever the problem was themselves and he'd be in at his scheduled time after he showered.
It was so hot that the dogs went back inside and watched us work on the satellite from my bedroom window. I was worried they would be stealing tools again, but nope, they didn't want to come out in this heat.

Internet seems to be working fairly well for now but it takes 12hours for it to mark any obstructions.
 

havasu

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Lick both index fingers. Now, touch the vertical silver rods that go up and down in your breaker box. As you get zapped, you'll say, " dammit, I just touched the buss bars!"
 

Zanne

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LOL. I think I'll keep my fingers out of the breaker box.

I had to take my brother to the bank (credit union) today because someone emptied his savings account without his knowledge/permission & the bank let them do it. Claimed to be some sort of banking app or something that he doesn't have. Earlier in he day he got a call from he bank that someone tried to take a loan out in his name. It wasn't him so they denied it. But then they let someone drain his account. The people on the phone accused him of scamming them and refused to transfer him to the fraud department. So he went in person to the local bank & they said it was clearly fraud but they have to do an "investigation" and after that is concluded he might get his money back. But he might not.

To make matters worse, when he tried to roll his IRA over from Capital One to his credit union, CO refused. Said he filed wrong paperwork and that he had a Roth IRA (but his paperwork said otherwise). So, he filed for Roth IRA to roll it. They still refused and said it was the other kind-- the kind he originally did paperwork on for rolling over. To add insult to it, he suddenly couldn't access his account anymore and it was gone. They later sent a letter saying they had transferred his account to Millennium Trust (without permission or prior notice). Millennium Trust will not let him login or access his account. When he called them they told him to call CO. He called CO and they told him to call MT. When he called back MT they said they were closed. So, he's had basically all of his money stolen.

Just found out my ISP raised the monthly price without warning. Went from $99 to $110. But our old ISP was $110 and really sucked. I hope they don't raise it again though. They should at least have to give warning first.
 

Mitchell-DIY-Guy

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If you get a chance run that 10-2 through some conduit from the main to the sub panel. It might glow like a lightbulb one day.
I doubt it. The single load on the circuit is the single load on the circuit. I had two sub panels installed by electricians in my old house. Yes they ran off a breaker, but the wires didn't glow. If the wires glow on this sub panel it means the load is exceeded and the breaker will pop. If there is no load, there's no load. If it were to glow like a light bulb it would mean there is excessive load, and that breaker would pop.

There's a fuse at the transformer at the pole, but that protects the transformer, ostensibly. (I'll ignore the fact that a few years ago the transformer simply exploded...) The transformer serves 4 or 5 homes, so it is not going to pop because of a load. After the transformer, the drops are not protected by a fuse. When the connect to the SE cable outside, this cable is not protected by a fuse either. So there is an awful lot of cable in an electrical system not protected by a fuse. It's protected by fuses/breakers only on a load. (I should also note that I had a problem with one of the three, 3-phase fuses on the pole outside my car wash pop for no reason. They even came and installed sophisticated monitoring equipment on my lines and couldn't figure it out. I had to devise a system to shut off everything at the car wash when one of the phases was gone...)

The problem with a lot of load and connection issues is the wrong kind of wire (Al when copper is required); or connections NOT TIGHT. These connections are very tight. No Al in the system, even the SE cable. 10 gauge is proper for a 30A circuit with single load.

Is this the best? Hell no. I may modify it in case an inspector pops in...you never know.

What would I do? Remove the 30A range circuit wiring and fuses, and switch to 50A or 60A cartridge fuses. From the old range fuse block, run 4 gauge wire over to a sub panel. Change the one breaker two position sub panel to one that can accommodate at least two breakers or four positions. I may have to just get a duplicate of what I have; this was only $16 and I don't need or want a large service panel. Rewire the range circuit to a two pole 30A breaker, and do the same for the water heater circuit. Now either the larger sub panel, (or the two smaller sub panels) are protected by the cartridge fuses, and each load and circuit protected by the breakers. A bit more complex, but the eyebrow gets raised a bit less...

Based on the age of the home this must have been one of the last breaker panels ever installed. I think the home was 1967-1968. Our old family home that was nearly identical, built at the same time, in a neighboring town, had a 150A breaker service panel.

Any town electrical inspector coming by would want the entire system replaced. In a perfect world that would be proper. That would be the top of the list when the home is sold; I'd write this up in a heartbeat as a home inspector.
 

Twowaxhack

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I doubt it. The single load on the circuit is the single load on the circuit. I had two sub panels installed by electricians in my old house. Yes they ran off a breaker, but the wires didn't glow. If the wires glow on this sub panel it means the load is exceeded and the breaker will pop. If there is no load, there's no load. If it were to glow like a light bulb it would mean there is excessive load, and that breaker would pop.

There's a fuse at the transformer at the pole, but that protects the transformer, ostensibly. (I'll ignore the fact that a few years ago the transformer simply exploded...) The transformer serves 4 or 5 homes, so it is not going to pop because of a load. After the transformer, the drops are not protected by a fuse. When the connect to the SE cable outside, this cable is not protected by a fuse either. So there is an awful lot of cable in an electrical system not protected by a fuse. It's protected by fuses/breakers only on a load. (I should also note that I had a problem with one of the three, 3-phase fuses on the pole outside my car wash pop for no reason. They even came and installed sophisticated monitoring equipment on my lines and couldn't figure it out. I had to devise a system to shut off everything at the car wash when one of the phases was gone...)

The problem with a lot of load and connection issues is the wrong kind of wire (Al when copper is required); or connections NOT TIGHT. These connections are very tight. No Al in the system, even the SE cable. 10 gauge is proper for a 30A circuit with single load.

Is this the best? Hell no. I may modify it in case an inspector pops in...you never know.

What would I do? Remove the 30A range circuit wiring and fuses, and switch to 50A or 60A cartridge fuses. From the old range fuse block, run 4 gauge wire over to a sub panel. Change the one breaker two position sub panel to one that can accommodate at least two breakers or four positions. I may have to just get a duplicate of what I have; this was only $16 and I don't need or want a large service panel. Rewire the range circuit to a two pole 30A breaker, and do the same for the water heater circuit. Now either the larger sub panel, (or the two smaller sub panels) are protected by the cartridge fuses, and each load and circuit protected by the breakers. A bit more complex, but the eyebrow gets raised a bit less...

Based on the age of the home this must have been one of the last breaker panels ever installed. I think the home was 1967-1968. Our old family home that was nearly identical, built at the same time, in a neighboring town, had a 150A breaker service panel.

Any town electrical inspector coming by would want the entire system replaced. In a perfect world that would be proper. That would be the top of the list when the home is sold; I'd write this up in a heartbeat as a home inspector.
I’ll be honest, I didn’t read all of what you’ve posted,

Leave it like you have it if you want, the 10-2 is not protected by an appropriate size fuse or breaker between the panel and your subpanel. It’s an absolute violation and a fire hazard.

That 10-2 between the main panel and your subpanel would melt and glow bright orange if shorted. The wire would act like a fuse…….


Fine with me, I don’t live there or next door……

That’s all, no need for me to talk anymore about it. Good luck 👍
 
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Zanne

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Despite having taken electronics in high school and college, my brain is not translating the discussion much. I know 10/2 is hot and neutral (or two hots) in 10 gauge so it is large wire for heavy current. I know what 30amp is. But the rest is gibberish. Probably because its so hot out it fries my brain.

With my meds I am very sensitive to heat. Went grocery shopping today. Spotted my friend for some groceries and gas. It's up to $4.349 for gas. But gas here is cheaper than in other countries. It's over $8/gallon in some countries.

Determined that my dogs actually are part Rhodesian Ridgeback. Female has a stripe down her back but no ridge. Male has rougher fur on his back. Both have the paws, coloration, and facial markings of RRs. They are getting bigger every day it seems. The poor calico cat was getting really mad bc one of them was wagging tail very fast and kept hitting her with it. She kept swatting it but the dog didn't notice.

I'm about to take a nap.
 

BlueSkyHigh

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Spotted my friend for some groceries and gas. It's up to $4.349 for gas. But gas here is cheaper than in other countries. It's over $8/gallon in some countries.
I believe the administration wants us to think that the US has had it too good for too long. Sadly, for me, I was better off before Jan 20, 2021, attack on the United States. But that's just my opinion.

Cool on the dogs. I watched the canine agility championships from somewhere in the North East yesterday! Dang those dogs can weave around those poles!
 

Twowaxhack

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You using a trencher or a shovel ?

If you’re using a shovel take the grass off the top and lay on one side of ditch. Put dirt you dig out on other side of ditch. I’ve put down plastic before to put my dirt on to make clean up easier. Just don’t leave plastic down for over 24 hrs or it can kill the grass under it.

I put my grass and dirt as close as possible to the trench.

This makes it much easier to backfill.
 

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That's a nice shed. I hope you have a cool afternoon when you do that trench.

I had an exciting afternoon of going to get the license plate for the new car.
 

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Zanne

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Blueskyhigh, my dogs are so uncoordinated right now. They still have puppy legs. They destroyed their dog bed and have pieces of it all over the hallway and kitchen. I ate too much at dinner and am about to go into a food coma. I need to rest for at least half an hour or I get sick to my stomach if I have to do bending and lifting. I need to watch more videos of dogs and animals being dexterous. They are certainly more agile than I am.

Hamberg, that is a nice shed! I want my own shed that isn't made of metal and that doesn't turn into an oven in this heat. Shale sounds pretty sturdy. We have sandy loam here. Some spots we have red clay but once you break the clay barrier it goes to white sand.

As an aside, I want this shirt:
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I think there is also a mug with that slogan. The Matrix version with LED was 38% off on Amazon so I bought it and am waiting for it to arrive.

The base charging unit for my handset phone arrived today. It was cheaper to order one with a refurbished handset than by itself so I have an extra phone just in case. I have it in a drawer for now.

I noticed the toilet is leaning and that the floor is getting more flexible in the bathroom so we are going to have to remedy that soon. Anyone here have to do floor repair/replacement as part of plumbing work?

I'm hoping my friend will be able to help me but his gf (yeah, he took her back) just had her car repo'd and they are going to have to drive 2 hours to get her stuff out of it- and repo place is saying they have to pay a fee to get the stuff-- which is illegal in this state. I sent them the appropriate links with the laws. I told them to call the cops if the place refuses to turn it over. I think she's got some clothes, the car seat for the baby, some of the baby's stuff, diapers, and other stuff in there.

My cat, Mewlatto decided he has to climb on me right now. His fluffy fur is in my face.
 

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