Water Softener Loop include a drain?

[Levi]

Plumbers, is it reasonable and customary to include a drain as part of water softener pre-plumbing? Does the description "water softener loop" mean ONLY the supply loop is included, or would you still install a drain?

Background:

Verbally, owner requested pre-plumbing for water softener. Plans show water softener in garage. Written specs include "water softener loop".

This area has terrible water. Most builders install a supply loop and standpipe drain. This plumber installed supply loop, but no drain. Builder said, "Usually people just drain it to the washing machine standpipe. Trouble is softener loop is in detached garage, laundry is in main house. Builder says "We can just go up and over the breezeway I don't think that is a good idea. Code official agrees.

Plumber said, "nobody said anything about a drain". Builder reluctant to remedy this problem at his cost, as drain wasn't in specs.

I know there are several possible remedys, and we can discuss that later, for now, I 'd like to stick to the question at the top of post, whether this is reasonable and customary. Thanks!

 

[KULTULZ]

Verbally, owner requested pre-plumbing for water softener. Plans show water softener in garage. Written specs include "water softener loop".

This area has terrible water. Most builders install a supply loop and standpipe drain. This plumber installed supply loop, but no drain. Builder said, "Usually people just drain it to the washing machine standpipe. Trouble is softener loop is in detached garage, laundry is in main house.

Builder says "We can just go up and over the breezeway I don't think that is a good idea. Code official agrees.

Plumber said, "nobody said anything about a drain". Builder reluctant to remedy this problem at his cost, as drain wasn't in specs.

I know there are several possible remedys, and we can discuss that later, for now, I 'd like to stick to the question at the top of post, whether this is reasonable and customary.

Thanks!

IMO

The builder is incompetent and needs to supply a proper drain.

The plumber only does what is on the work order.

Below is a somewhat proper install, but the drain could have been better done (IMO).

 

[SHR]

Water softener loop means water loop only. NEVER means drain, that is a whole nuther thing. Plumber did their job, specs were not complete. Around my area softeners are often drained in to floor drains with the appropriate air gap.

 

[KULTULZ]

Water softener loop means water loop only. NEVER means drain, that is a whole nuther thing.

Plumber did their job, specs were not complete.

Around my area softeners are often drained in to floor drains with the appropriate air gap.

OK, was the OP supplied a floor drain? If not, the builder is incompetent. How can you allow for supply when there is no allowance for drain?

In this instance/example, the loop is just an interruption and continuation of supply to the rest of the house, whether it is tapped or not, correct.

Maybe spec should read, plumb for possible future WS install?

Now be gentle please as I am elderly and on a need-to know basis here...

 

[Levi]

Two different perspectives, thank you. I'd love to hear a few more.

I see your point, the builder drew up the plans and specs, and they were incomplete in many ways. The fridge was labeled, but since the words "ice maker" didn't appear, he didn't put in an icemaker line either. Fortunately the toilets were drawn or we would be in real trouble, LOL!

No, there were no floor drains, the plumber knew this, as he did ALL the plumbing

 

[Levi]

I wish the plumber had simply ASKED about plumbing a drain (and an icemaker) before the slab was poured, but I agree the GC is the one who is responsible. Or is the owner? The verbal agreement was pre-plumbing for water softener, the contractor put a water softener on the plans, and a "Water softener loop" in the contract. So is it reasonable and customary that a drain would be installed?

 

[phishfood]

In Florida, it is rather common to pre plumb a softener loop, in the garage, which is normally on an exterior block wall. Through which it is really easy to poke a drain line to the exterior.

This is common enough that it is easy to see how both the GC and plumber might not realize the need for a drain. Doesn't excuse the lack of a drain if one actually needs to be provided, but if you purchase a home that will be built by a production builder, you won't get the attention to detail that you might expect from a custom one-off builder.

 

[Mr_David]

Just because you spec a loop for a water softener does mean that softener requires a drain.
Culligan is a water softener system that requires no drain.
Not sure if they still have that type of service where they deliver and exchange tanks.

Who designed and spec'ed out the new home.
The general Contractor or an Architect?
The plumber just installed what was spec'ed out to him

 

[Levi]

This is a high end custom home, builder was the HIGH bid, one house at a time guy. Owner (my folks) communicated needs and desires verbally and in writing. Builder drew plans and a contract including written specs. The verbal understanding that water softener pre-plumbing was to be included was very clear from the owner's point of view. It was discussed on multiple occasions. Owner did not realize "Water softener Loop" was only the supply, or she would have had that corrected on specs.

As for sticking it through the wall of the garage, that is not permitted here. I'm not sure whether it is plumbing, health department or environmental agencies, but you can't drain water softeners to the ground, it has to go into the septic system. I'm told they will look the other way if you install a french drain or rock well, but technically it is not permitted.

A lot of mistakes were made during rough in which was very rushed. I think the builder knows he made a mistake and is trying to fall back on a technicality (specs) to avoid remedying it.

 

[frodo]

what we have here...is a failure to communicate.

here is the down and dirty

contractor drew the print, not an engineer. he forgot or did not know that water softener loop and water softnr loop with drain were 2 different things.

the plumber installed what was on the print.

anything to be added is an extra, before the plumber proceeds, he needs a SIGNED work order

this is called a learning curve, you can bet your butt the contractor will not make that mistake again.

 

[Caduceus]

I've done quite a bit of rough-in work on all types of residential homes for various types of GCs. The rule that has always been adhered to is like frodo said. Written agreements always supersede any verbal agreements in the construction business and an experienced builder would know that. I have installed loops for softeners and the drain always had to be specified. I say the GC dropped the ball on this one.

 

[Levi]

Final word, the General Contractor says he is NOT going to remedy the problem, so my folks are stuck with a water softener loop with no drain. THEY will have to pay to have a drywell put in. They don't want it near the house, so it will be a long trench to dig also.

 

[KULTULZ]

...AIN'T THAT A B!TCH...

As installed on your house (slab), it has to have supply, waste and power. I have read and read and I have not come across a set definition (but many different descriptions) of a softener loop. The only loop in your build is just a jag of the supply piping into the garage and back to the house.

Anymore screw-ups on his part?

 

[Levi]

LOTS of screw ups. Definately picking my battles here, just trying to intervene when I see something that will cause problems later. I couldn't find any code references to water softeners either. Thank you so much for looking.

 

[KULTULZ]

LOTS of screw ups. Definately picking my battles here, just trying to intervene when I see something that will cause problems later.

I couldn't find any code references to water softeners either. Thank you so much for looking.

I am not a professional and do not have access to any code book(s) either. I was just searching by definition. There seems to be a hundred interpretations of just exactly what a water softener loop is and/or consists of.

 

[CT18]

Were submittals or equipment specs provided to GC for all fixtures prior to construction. If they were and approved as noted GC is responsible for the proper plumbing connections per spec's. Like sub zero fridge with ice maker in door kind of thing.

 

[frodo]

if you have a contract, look for the words "complete system" no drain , not complete. period,,,drop the mic

 

[Levi]

No, owner planned to install softener after move in. Verbal communication was "pre-plumbed for water softener", contract said "water softener loop". Owner did not realize there was a difference. Neither did I. When I built a non-custom, cheapo tract home, one of the builder "extras" you could pay more for was a "water softener loop" (yes those exact words). I got a drain too, go figure.

 

[KULTULZ]

This term is open to debate. It should be termed softener-filtration supply loop as what I have found while searching defines as cold line plumbing w/ softener bypassing the outside bibs and if chosen, the kitchen sink, or any other fixture where you do not want softened water.

Regardless, this supply loop has to also have electric supply and DWV when initially plumbed. It is only common sense...

 

[Levi]

Thanks for the common sense. At this point my folks have decided to cut their losses and handle this themselves. What would be the best way to install proper drainage for the water softener. I am thinking a standpipe box, no trap, and a run of 2" to get it beyond the house so about 50' of pipe would get it to the side yard. (She absolutely doesn't want it near the house and exit point from the house is inside corner between 4 car garage and main house)

Then what to do in the side yard? I figure then she just needs a resevior to hold brine/backwwash pending soil absorption. Gravel pit? Manufactured drywell? Longer, linear french drain with perf pipe and gravel or peanuts? 55 gl drum with drilled holes? Manufactured septic chamber like ADS or infiltrator?