Water shuts off well/pump

Discussion in 'Pumps and Wells' started by dmbe618, Oct 22, 2018.

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  1. Nov 7, 2018 #21

    Valveman

    Valveman

    Valveman

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    50 PSI constant will fill a cattle trough much faster than if the pump was cycling and varying the pressure between 40 and 60. And if you need more than 50 PSI, then turn up the CSV and pressure switch. I have systems working as high as 400 PSI. So you can have as much pressure as you want, you just have to turn up the pressure.

    I don't know what you are talking about with "two regulators"? You only need one CSV to make it work properly. With a CSV and a small tank the pump will cycle every time you use water, but will not cycle while water is being used. This is a big difference whether you can see it or not. The pump knows the difference as it will last longer, and the customer knows the difference because of the steady constant pressure.

    Trying another analogy. If there was a fuel additive that only cost a dollar and could make any car get 100 mpg, do you think the guy at the gas station would tell you about it? Not likely, he makes his living selling fuel. He will probably even try to make you think it will hurt the car engine or destroy the environment to keep you from trying it. In the same way pump guys will try to talk you out of a CSV, because it cuts into their business.

    No! Homeowners will have to find out about disruptive products like that fuel additive and a CSV on their own. Thank goodness for the Internet and these forums. Homeowners would never hear about a CSV if they waited for their pump man or plumber to tell them about it. They won't tell homeowners about things that save them money if it cuts into their business like a CSV does.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  2. Nov 8, 2018 #22

    Jamesplumbing06

    Jamesplumbing06

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    Lol what? I really think you work for this company. And attended a few sales seminars. You keep redirecting. The big bell looking thing is a regulator. The plastic csv is a regulator. And there is a pressure tank and switch. Lol I understand your theory and analogy’s. But when you mention anything about a conventional system. You mention about how these devices wear out. But your miracle device has the same devices. That will wear out. I always make my systems flow constant. Just build my own csv so when my pump comes on I don’t feel it. That’s why I installed a red light outside building. If pump is on light is on. And that light rarely comes on. I stand out by basement door to smoke and well House is right there while the women in my house take 45 minute showers. During that 45 minutes the pump comes on 4 times. I don’t have a 47 gallon. I was just doing simple math and ment to hit 40. But didn’t realize it hit 7. Anywho. All analogy’s aside. What components of this system will never need replaced? That’s the only reliable system. One that never breaks.(don’t think they make those yet) My grand parents submersible is 45 years old. My dads is 27 and moms is 23. Where did you come up with 7? If I find one broken less than 10 I wanna know why it’s broken. Job security or not. Pulling a pump 250’ is for the birds. I am a plumber. Analogy’s don’t work. Give me the physical reason that these parts last longer than the ones on shelf. The shelf is where I find replacement parts. Except for the proprietary large regulating valve. And the small plastic csv. ( regulator ) other than that just need a 4.5 gallon pressure tank. And pressure switch. Submersibles only go to 120psi. Can’t just turn it up 400. Lol. Above grounds go up to 75. Not getting 400 out of that. Besides not worried about 400. Houses just need 80. Yes just turn it up. But then recalibrate everything just like conventional.
     
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  3. Nov 8, 2018 #23

    FishScreener

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    James: I’m an engineer. I looked at your system several years ago, and decided it was horse pucky. It eliminates no moving parts, and adds a couple. So the probability of failure goes up, not down. And, like James, I think you’re a shill for the company.
     
  4. Nov 8, 2018 #24

    Valveman

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    I own the company, have several patents on the CSV, and make no bones about it. But I have been a well driller and pump installer for 50+ years, which is why I know this valve solves nearly all the problems associated with pressure tank and VFD systems. I came up with the idea by accident, and didn't think it was that good of an idea at first myself. But when my customers started saying "wow, whatever you did solved all my problems and gives me much stronger pressure", I took a better look. Then when several of the major pump companies "blacklisted the CSV" I thought they might have discovered they hurt pumps in some way. But when an engineer from Goulds retired and told me the whole story, I have been beating the drum ever since to let people know. It turns out the CSV was blacklisted not because there was something wrong with it, but just the opposite. The companies said "they tested CSV's and they make pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks, this company makes pumps and tanks, so any employee that mentions a Cycle Stop Valve will be terminated immediately". They said that in 1994, but I didn't find out about it until 1998.

    During the last 50 years I have been to countless pump schools where the manufacturer is teaching why their pumps are so much better and last so much longer than the other guys pumps. But I realize this was all a bunch of crap, and they didn't want their pumps to last longer, when they blacklisted a device that would make any pump last longer. They build in planned obsolescence to make pumps last an average of 7 years, and they don't want people to know about it. It is great that some of your systems last 30 years or so, as many do. But since the overall average life of pumps is 7 years, for every pump that last 30 years, there is another that only lasted 30 days. High use systems like chicken farms, greenhouses, and even homes with heat pumps and irrigation systems cycle their pumps to death much too early. Many of them have to replace their pumps and pressure tanks every year, or sometimes more than once per year. When I put a CSV on several of those systems and the pumps have now lasted over 20 years, that proves the CSV makes pumps last MUCH longer than normal. Pump companies know this, which is why they blacklisted the CSV.

    Another major pump manufacturer, which you should know, started making residential size VFD systems in 1999. A few years later one of their engineers retired and told me the story. This company decided to make residential grade VFD systems "to have something that could compete with the constant pressure performance of the CSV, without shooting their planned obsolescence in the foot". That is how those cheap residential VFD systems got started. That DAB thing mentioned earlier is just one of the latest attempts to solve some of the inherent problems with VFD control. I actually studied Electrical Engineering and was installing industrial size VFD's long before coming up with the CSV. I accidentally came up with the CSV, to help solve some of the problems I was having with the VFD systems. Once I realized the CSV did a much better job than a VFD, I switched every VFD system I had previously installed to a CSV system, and all the problems went away.

    Over the last 25 years I have been ask and have given many classes to Engineers, pump installers, irrigation contractors, etc, etc. Several years ago I gave a class to a couple hundred engineers at Penn State University. After the class and the question and answer segment, I realized I might have more knowledge on this subject than just about anybody. Don't mean to brag, but that is what every engineer I talk to tells me.

    After being blacklisted by many of the pump companies, I realized the only way for people to get the facts, was from the Internet. I no longer give classes, do trade shows, or hog dog days at the supply houses. I spend my time explaining pump systems to people on these forums, as that is the only way they will find out about disruptive products like the CSV.

    The vast majority of engineers I talk to do not understand pumps, but think they do. Just another good reason for people to come to these forums to find out some facts. I am not a shill for the company, I am the company. And any engineer worth their salt would call and discuss this with me and learn a few things. I can give you a few engineers names that know how pumps work if you would like to talk to them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  5. Nov 8, 2018 #25

    Diehard

    Diehard

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    I've been specifying and approving pumps for a major environmental engineering firm for over 25 years.
    All I can say when I see a statement like, "The vast majority of engineers I talk to do not understand pumps" is, you must be talking to the wrong types of engineers.
    There's not much to learn about your system from an engineering standpoint. Constant pressure systems have been around for many years. Of course their use is typically limited to larger more sophisticated systems. The CSV system is quite simple in it's design approach. It sounds like it's a matter of how it compares to the traditional approach for longevity of components. A history or track record of installed systems is worth a lot more than words.

    EDIT: Oh yeah...I do like the idea of constant pressure, if all else works out.
     
  6. Nov 8, 2018 #26

    packardv8

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    I have no dog in this fight, but want to learn. One has to ask why, since VFD has been an industry control standard in machinery, pumps, conveyors, lifts; pretty much anything which requires a wide range of RPM, flow or speed. They work perfectly, last for years and are almost infinitely adjustable and configurable. What is it about homeowner well pumps which makes VFD control unsuitable? Cost? Environmental condition?

    jack vines
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  7. Nov 8, 2018 #27

    Jamesplumbing06

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    Knowledge. Homeowners think a surge of pressure in shower will cost big money. So they live it. Just needs recalibrated at least checked once a year. Sry to burst valve bubble. But at the base of the csv is still movable parts that uncalibrate and need changing. Eventually. And I know I can build a constant pressure system. And my pumps better last 10 years. To many warranties to be busting at 7. I give full coverage warranties for 10 years on submersible and 5 on above ground. It’s my way of telling my customer. I believe In this device. I believe in it so much. I go above and beyond manufactures warranty. Been in business for me since 06. Never had to warranty one yet. And have made enough off the others to pay for 1 or 5 bad ones. I dunno. I still see 2 devices that regulate pressure and flow (regulators) , pressure switch and pressure switch.
     
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  8. Nov 8, 2018 #28

    Valveman

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    I agree! There isn't much to learn. I do not know why it is so hard for engineers to understand that when using a pump with a centrifugal impeller, restricting the flow reduces the amp draw or horsepower almost exactly as much as varying the pump speed with a VFD. It is completely counter intuitive, so I understand why the average home owner falls for the VFD, but not a good engineer.

    VFD's are a good thing! They work on so many different things. I use them on my plastic injection machines. But I had to cut a hole in the cabinet and install a window unit type air conditioner to keep the VFD from tripping out on overheat. It is still worth it as it gives much better control than my hydraulic units. However, this VFD is running a positive displacement hydraulic pump, not a centrifugal pump. (Big difference) Running a centrifugal pump and maintaining a constant pressure a VFD cannot reduce the horsepower or amperage any more than just throttling the pump with a simple valve.

    It is a very simple valve. But unfortunately because people don't understand pump horsepower reduces by simply closing a valve, it makes it really hard to explain. Otherwise you could describe it as a simple ball valve that understands how much water you are using, and only opens up for that much water, so there is no extra left to fill the pressure tank. The pressure just stays at 50 no matter how much or little water you are using, instead of going up and down from 40 to 60 over and over. My wife would be angry with me if her shower pressure dropped to 40 PSI three or four times while she was in the shower. She is spoiled to constant pressure.

    VFD's will also hold a good constant pressure for a shower using a centrifugal pump. But because the amps will also drop naturally with just a simple valve, there are a lot of side effects of VFD that you don't have to live with. The overheating problem is just a starting place for the things we could discuss about VFD problems. But they have gotten much better and less expensive over the years. Because VFD's work so well, and even save energy with things like my plastic injection machines, conveyor belts, and positive displacement pumps, many people think they will do the same with centrifugal pumps, which isn't true. The centrifugal pump is a pretty magical thing all by itself. All you have to do is close a valve to make it pump less water, and the amps will drop as if you were slowing the RPM of the pump. It is very common for someone to ask me "how that CSV is reducing the RPM of their pump when it has no electrical connection?" They see the amps drop and it is hard for me to convince them the valve is not changing the pump speed. Pumps just do that naturally, or "magically".

    It is a matter of longevity of components and a track record of installed systems is worth a lot. Like you said, constant pressure systems using valves have been around for many years. We have close to a million systems out there, many of them for as long as 25 years still running. You can also research "Aguagenie" and "Hydroservant" which there are some close to 50 years still working. Which is exactly why a pump company bought out those two valves and quit making them years ago. There is also Cla-Val and many copies thereof, that have been controlling pumps that are decades old.

    VFD's are a very good thing! But because of the natural amp drop of centrifugal pumps they may not be worth the side effects. There are a lot of "wrong engineers" who do not understand this. There are also a lot of "good engineers" who do understand this, but they don't like being beaten down like me by those who don't.
     
  9. Nov 8, 2018 #29

    Valveman

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    It is not just homeowner well pumps, but any pump with a centrifugal impeller. VFD's are great with almost anything except a centrifugal impeller. Losing head by the square of the pump speed, as per the Affinity law, means you can't slow a pump down very much without losing all your pressure. Added to the fact that horsepower of a centrifugal pump decreases with flow rate, without having to reduce the speed of the pump, means VFD's are just more expensive and troublesome than a simple valve, since it will give the same results.
     
  10. Nov 8, 2018 #30

    Jamesplumbing06

    Jamesplumbing06

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    So wait. Ok to sum it up. It’s better to let pump run at full potential and cushion the pumped water while it’s being pumped. ?Instead of allowing pump to start full potential and slowly decreasing power as pressure rises to build inside a pressure tank? Or maybe I am hearing That this csv somehow allows pump to pump less water than is actually needed. Like if I need 10 gallons. Then a conventional system ( by newton) has to pump 10 actual gallons. But your pump will only need to pump ? 7-8 gallon? I trying man. I really am. But I still see 2 devices that restrict water flow and pressure, pressure tank and pressure switch. I dunno what part is the magic one that never fails?
     
  11. Nov 8, 2018 #31

    Jamesplumbing06

    Jamesplumbing06

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    Don’t use anymore abbreviations. My wife got a guy smacked one day. She is an occupational therapist. She sent me a text saying the PT had hit her and she didn’t want to go back into HIS room.
    Well I am a plumber and when my knees hurt I go to a PT( physical therapist).
    So I found the first PT and laid his ass out. Just before I boot stomped him. My wife said it was a patient not a therapist. So PT. Stands for patient. So no abbreviations are allowed in my house. Say what it is and leave the fancy words for the rich stuck up a holes with abbreviations after their name
     
  12. Nov 8, 2018 #32

    Valveman

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    I can appreciate that you are good at installing pumps. And there are lots of ways to skin a cat or install a pump. 25-50 years ago I also told people the larger the pressure tank the better. That still holds true unless you use a CSV or a VFD. But there are lots of advantages to a constant pressure system. Advantages that the homeowner can feel in the shower and their pocket book, one way or the other.

    There is only one mechanical moving part in a CSV, and they never need readjusting. Adding that one extra moving part to a regular pressure tank/pressure switch system takes a lot of wear and tear off all the other moving parts in the pump system. Eliminating the cycling makes every component in a water system last longer. Every pump company in the world agrees with this, as that is one of their claims with their VFD systems. If reducing the cycling with a complicated and computerized VFD makes pumps last longer, then getting the same results with a simple valve will make the system even more affordable and long lasting.

    But if it is not for you, then it is not for you. I have pump installer customers who tell me they only use a CSV when they have a problem. When they have pumps, bladder tanks, pressure switches, check valves, start capacitors, or other things failing too often, they use a CSV. When they have water hammer they can't solve any other way, they use a CSV. When they don't have room for the large tanks they like to sell, they use a CSV. I always say, if it solves all those problems, why not just install a CSV to start with. :)
     
  13. Nov 8, 2018 #33

    Valveman

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    A pressure tank and pressure switch do not restrict flow. They allow the pump to run at full capacity (say 10 GPM) until the tank is full, then the switch shuts off the pump. Yes the CSV causes the pump to produce less water. If you are only using a 3 GPM shower, the CSV makes your 10 GPM pump think it is in a deeper well, so it can only pump 3 GPM. That way it just stays at 50 PSI and there is no extra water to fill the tank to 60, so the pump keeps running for the entire shower, even if you were in there for a month. Only when you turn off all the faucets (shower) will the CSV let 1 GPM enter the tank until it is full to 60 PSI and the pump is shut off.

    I know! To be such a simple valve it has a complicated explanation. The main problem is everybody thinks closing a valve against a pump makes the pump work harder, when just the opposite is true. Restricting the flow of a 10 GPM pump to only 3 GPM while the shower is running actually makes the motor draw lower amps, run cooler, and eliminates four to eight cycles per shower on average. Newton would be very confused about the natural characteristics of a centrifugal pump, but I think he would sit down and figured it out. :)
     
  14. Nov 9, 2018 at 11:05 AM #34

    Jamesplumbing06

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    So point to what’s different. I see ya pressure switch. Moving part. And I see a pressure tank. Moving part. And that plastic device female threaded on to a rigid stainless pipe. Regulator of some type .Moving part attached to non moving part, it will break. Your adding a plastic female on rigid pipe and you call it better? Plastic is rigid is tricky. Always breaks. Male or female. When the plastic side is mounted to rigid then the other side allowed to vibrate even just a fraction of a millimeter. Eventually breaks. What makes plumbers great. Is we come fix what we know as a mistake on our end. And I see plastic I remove plastic. Or absorb the vicration with a 1’ section of pex.
     

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  15. Nov 9, 2018 at 11:18 AM #35

    Jamesplumbing06

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    Look we could go through this over and over. I just think your over complicating things by adding yet another movable wearable part. But you stay online. Keep telling yourself Lowe’s and Home Depot missing out. And the world is wrong. But your barking up an empty tree at this point. We see the extra device and the same identical but smaller setup. 40-60 system with tank set at 38 and in a shower you never feel it. But now that tank gets off and yes you look like Superman. But to us you just made somebody spend a few hundred to call a plumber. Remove old working components that just needed calibrated($65) and installing a “ mini me” system. WITH AN EXTRA PART TO BREAK. No we don’t understand why this extra part is needed. Calibrate it and let’s go to lunch. Bigger problems at next repair.
     
  16. Nov 9, 2018 at 12:33 PM #36

    Jamesplumbing06

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    https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/pk1a-pside-kick-troubleshooting
    Trouble shooting from your website. Everything is mentioned just like a conventional system. Your producing a higher cycle with a device to go 10psi lower and allow the constant pressure. Just like putting in a pressure regulator valve set 10 psi lower than pressure switch cycle. Same theory. just different proprietary brands. Your cycle stop valve doesn’t stop anything. It elongates the cycle. Your just good at redirecting the answer to talk about your regulator (cycle stop valve). Then I see a cycle monitor electronic device. Omg you want another electrical device added to system? Com’on man ! A low pressure cut out switch will do this mechanically with no electronics. There is a forum on that site. You’ll have better luck there. Maybe in your injection mold machines can see a difference but still same logic. Build high pressure then slowly let a lower pressure seep out as needed. A pressure regulating valve is that smart ball valve you imagined. It only allows a set pressure through. No matter what you call for. It only lets that set pressure out. Just like your proprietary cycle stop valve. Same logic. I see now.
     
  17. Nov 9, 2018 at 1:52 PM #37

    Valveman

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    A pressure regulator does not vary the flow from the pump like a Cycle Stop Valve does. The CSV varies the flow from the pump to match the amount being used, which is similar but superior to how a VFD system works. You still have no clue how any of these things work, yet you keep posting arguments like you know what you are talking about. This is exactly why I post in Do It Yourself forums. Most homeowners can figure out how it works, as long as some plumber or pump man isn't standing there babbling about things they don't understand. I wouldn't still be in business after 25 years if these things didn't work exactly as I say.

    Home Depot was another one of those companies who refused to sell Cycle Stop Valves, because it is a disruptive product. I even made some orange ones and was set to put them on the shelves. Then their marketing manager figured out the CSV was a disruptive product and decided not to sell them. They said since CSV's made pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks. they would basically be giving up sales of all pumps, tanks, switches, check valves, and everything else that is destroyed prematurely from pumps cycling on and off. They decided not to sell Cycle Stop Valves instead of doing away with everything else in their pump section.

    "Com'on man!" I have offered to explain it to you, but you won't even call me. I assure you your customers will be calling me. They will say my plumber is hard headed and keeps telling me replacing these tanks and pumps so often is just normal, and for them to just get use to it. They will say their plumber tells them there is nothing they can do about experiencing low pressure a half dozen times for each shower. Their plumber will tell them the pipes banging in the walls is just normal since they have a well pump system. And they will tell them they can't have strong constant city like water pressure unless they move to town. All of this is horse hockey and your customers will figure it out. I showed you hundreds of reviews where people are telling me these exact things, and that after installing a CSV all those problems went away. But here is the link again in case you missed it.
    https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

    Then here are some reviews of which some are 25 years old.
    http://forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?board=25.0

    I hate making plumbers and pump guys look foolish, but when their customers call me, that is exactly what happens. Then after the homeowner installs a CSV and sees all the positive changes, the plumber who told them it was impossible doesn't usually get a call back.
     
  18. Nov 9, 2018 at 2:03 PM #38

    Valveman

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    Again you understand nothing. The Cycle Sensor is a dry well protection device, which also protects against rapid cycling. It is much more fool proof than a low pressure cut off switch for protecting against a dry well condition. There are times when a low pressure cut off switch will not shut the pump off when the well is dry. The biggest problem is the nuisance trips. Every time the power goes off, someone has to go to the well and lift that little lever on the side of the switch to get the pump running again. People don't like having to go into the crawl space after every power outage to get the water back on. The Cycle Sensor will just re-set itself after a power outage, and does not need to be manually re-started.

    When you fail to try and understand how things work, it is easy for people to see you don't know what you are talking about. I hate getting personal on a forum, but when you dismiss all the facts, there is nothing else I can do except to say you still don't know what you are talking about. As I said, I would be glad to explain it to you over the phone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018 at 5:35 PM
  19. Nov 11, 2018 at 1:08 PM #39

    Jamesplumbing06

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    Lol um. Ok. I see most homeowners loose interest in blah blah and just start shaking head to get you to shut up and fix it already. At the bottom line your csv is a regulator. It regulates flow. Your claiming it does it more efficiently. That’s awesome. I am proud of my accomplishments also. But there is still the same components needed to replace at some point. What is your warranty? You accomplish what I accomplish in a less expensive option of new install. But when a system just simply needs calibrating to last another 10-15 years. Then . Why?!
     
  20. Nov 11, 2018 at 11:03 PM #40

    Valveman

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    I have tried many ways to explain it to you. The fact that you still think a CSV needs occasional adjusting means you still don't know how it works. The CSV never needs adjusting. It will actually eliminate so much abuse on the system that it will also keep the air in the tank and the pressure switch from ever needing any further adjustment or replacement. Not only will I warranty any CSV for defects for almost any length of time, but I will also warranty any pump that is destroyed from any properly installed CSV. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the benefits of the CSV. But if you want to hear what a real rocket scientist said about it, see the following from a NASA engineer. What solved the pressure problems for NASA is the same CSV1A anyone can have on their own home well or booster pump system.

    Cary,
    Thanks much for all your support. Your product is performing great. Attached are pictures of the installed unit and pics of the Ares test rocket that's parked right outside the building where the pump is located. You can also see in the background one of the retrieval ships that tows the spent rocket boosters back to this facility. Thanks again for all your help in making this a successful project.

    Randal B. Mick
    USA SRB Facilities Systems Engineer


    Pump systems pictures at this link.
    http://forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?topic=2056.0

    Nasa pic.jpg
     

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