Water heater thermal expansion tank

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Junkiepanda

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Hello, I apologize in advance if this is on here on the forums already. I tried searching Google the past 2 weeks but no luck so far.

I have city water and just replaced my 20 year old rheem water heater. After it being installed for 4 months the tpr valve started spitting water. It even filled up the electric connections bowl. I called a plumber and they said it was a manufacturer defect after he replaced the temperature and pressure relief valve for a new one and it still spit water. Yesterday I put in the new water heater and its doing the same thing. The only thing I can find wrong is that it doesn't have a thermal expansion tank. But the 20 year old tank never needed one so what is going wrong?

Thanks for any input

Not a professional by any means I just learned little bits from my dad who was a plumber but he unfortunately just passed last year so I can't ask him.
 
Do you have a pressure reducing valve on your city water line?
Or a backflow preventer?
If you do, you need an expansion tank.

PS, sorry about your dad’s passing, just lost mine recently, still very tough to bear.
 
Unless they just added it I don't believe so but it is possible. Whats throwing me off is we didn't have the issue with 20 year old water heater

Thanks im sorry for your loss as well. Its hard working on plumbing without tearing up a bit.
 
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You can get a female hose thread type pressure gauge, and thread it onto a hose faucet or laundry sink.
To check water pressure.
Yours may be too high.
Even better, there is a type with a second needle, which records the highest pressure, in case yours has spikes at times.
 
I actually just bought one of those to test water pressure for the thermal expansion tank i just finished installing lol it was reading a steady 60psi

I guess I'll see if the issue is fixed.

I find it funny now that I think about it right when we had the issue start I fixed a leak to the sprinkler side of our main thats just after the city water shut off. I was thinking about it and our water company is sketchy and the only one available for our area but they just sent us a letter that we may have a leak and I found it had cracked pvc at the gate valve. I was thinking they may have put in a back flow preventer and when they turned the water back on they did it too fast and caused the pressure to break that fitting causing the leak because we now owe them just under $500 for the water leaking but its all speculation but that would explain why I didn't need a thermal expansion tank before. And why out of the blue the brand new water heater started tripping the valve.
 
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With an expansion tank installed, pressure swings might only read as a few psi.
But because water is not compressible, even a slight expansion of water, with nowhere to go, can cause big pressure increases.
 
Okay ill keep that in mind i just hope my t&p valve doesn't stop working and the tank blows up lol. thank you for all the input I really appreciate it.
 
You can test the t and p with the lever.
If you routinely flush your tank, you can also safely test the t and p valve at the same time.
If you get lazy on flushing, the t and p valve will sometimes clog with sediment during a test, and develop a permanent drip.
 
Junkiepanda, Jeff has given you some very important information. Get the water pressure gauge he recommended. The second hand on the gauge is often referred to as the “tattletale“ hand. You can watch the gauge all day, but the “tattletale“ will show you the highest pressure over a 24 hour or longer period. It will stop at the highest pressure and not reset itself. High water pressures usually occur at midnight and after. Put the gauge on the heater’s drain valve to see exactly what’s happening at the water heater.

I remember my experience with something similar 50+ years ago as a young plumber. Customer installed new water heater. T&P valve started dripping when heater was heating. Customer had never experienced this problem before. He replaced two T&P valves before calling water heater’s warranty department. The manufacturer had sent out two companies prior to calling my company. Each had simply installed new T&P valves that had not corrected the concern.

Lucky for the customer we knew there are only two factors that affect T&P valves, elevated pressure (150+ Psi) and elevated water temperature (210*F). A couple of good ways to know which is the culprit is by the mount of water released. A valve relieving because of temperature will relieve a lot of water quickly. And the water will be very hot and steamy.

With a pressure problem, the valve only releases enough water to maintain the 150 Psi. This is usually a drip. As Jeff pointed out, water is not easily compressed.

Let’s skip past the next two hours it took me to find the reason for the elevated water pressure. My problem was a RPV (Reduced Pressure Valve) installed at the home’s water meter. Over the years it had gotten covered over and the home owner didn’t actually know it was there. The PRV was originally installed some 30 years before when this was a new area with 150 Psi water pressure. The city utility actually came out and removed the old valve because it was no longer needed.

PRV are of two types, with and without bypass ports. Valves without bypass ports will act as check valves and not allow the pressurized water to back into the city water main. Valves with a bypass will allow water to flow back into the water main. This PRV‘s bypass port had gotten stopped up preventing the expanded water’s pressure to back past the valve.

This is a common problem when water is turned off to make repairs. After removing the PRV the water heater concern went away. The water gauge confirmed this was the problem. But, before you put up your tools check one more thing.

With the water pressure gauge still installed, make sure the PRV is maintaining 60 Psi 24/7. Remember, plumbing fixtures, valves and piping manufactures limit their warranties to 80 Psi or less. All the plumbing codes I’ve familiar with also limit the pressure to 80 Psi.

As earlier noted, an expansion tank may address the T&P function. However, an “inquiring minds (need to know)“ may force you to find the valve causing the problem. My bet is it’s a PRV, RPZ, DC, check valve or other device located at the meter. When you fixed the leak on the sprinkler system, you stopped the slow relief of over pressured water. Compare the drip from your T&PV now to the leak on your sprinkler piping. Was it the same of perhaps more?

I hope this mini series helps. But the water pressure gauge is the key to identifying your problem. Also, we plumbers call the water pressure gauge several different things, gauge with dead man’s leg, lazy hand, “that two headed gauge,” gauge with max indicator, and sometimes “that damn special“ water gauge! This is a tool all plumbers should have in their tool boxes.

Let us know what you find!
 
I will definitely grab a tester with the tattletale hand today and put it to work. So far we haven't had an issue with the water heater since the thermal expansion tank was put in but its still early. I really am curious as to what caused it all like you said curious minds lol... I forsee some digging in my future to find out. I appreciate yall taking time to answer my questions. I'll keep you posted.

Also when the water heater was spitting water it was only a little and not very hot so I do believe the issue is pressure and not heat.
 
So I just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time to respond to my post. Water pressure seems to be steady no crazy spikes. I haven't had any problems from the water heater after installing the thermal expansion tank. I think its safe to say that the problem is fixed 😁
 
Junkiepanda, Jeff has given you some very important information. Get the water pressure gauge he recommended. The second hand on the gauge is often referred to as the “tattletale“ hand. You can watch the gauge all day, but the “tattletale“ will show you the highest pressure over a 24 hour or longer period. It will stop at the highest pressure and not reset itself. High water pressures usually occur at midnight and after. Put the gauge on the heater’s drain valve to see exactly what’s happening at the water heater.

I remember my experience with something similar 50+ years ago as a young plumber. Customer installed new water heater. T&P valve started dripping when heater was heating. Customer had never experienced this problem before. He replaced two T&P valves before calling water heater’s warranty department. The manufacturer had sent out two companies prior to calling my company. Each had simply installed new T&P valves that had not corrected the concern.

Lucky for the customer we knew there are only two factors that affect T&P valves, elevated pressure (150+ Psi) and elevated water temperature (210*F). A couple of good ways to know which is the culprit is by the mount of water released. A valve relieving because of temperature will relieve a lot of water quickly. And the water will be very hot and steamy.

With a pressure problem, the valve only releases enough water to maintain the 150 Psi. This is usually a drip. As Jeff pointed out, water is not easily compressed.

Let’s skip past the next two hours it took me to find the reason for the elevated water pressure. My problem was a RPV (Reduced Pressure Valve) installed at the home’s water meter. Over the years it had gotten covered over and the home owner didn’t actually know it was there. The PRV was originally installed some 30 years before when this was a new area with 150 Psi water pressure. The city utility actually came out and removed the old valve because it was no longer needed.

PRV are of two types, with and without bypass ports. Valves without bypass ports will act as check valves and not allow the pressurized water to back into the city water main. Valves with a bypass will allow water to flow back into the water main. This PRV‘s bypass port had gotten stopped up preventing the expanded water’s pressure to back past the valve.

This is a common problem when water is turned off to make repairs. After removing the PRV the water heater concern went away. The water gauge confirmed this was the problem. But, before you put up your tools check one more thing.

With the water pressure gauge still installed, make sure the PRV is maintaining 60 Psi 24/7. Remember, plumbing fixtures, valves and piping manufactures limit their warranties to 80 Psi or less. All the plumbing codes I’ve familiar with also limit the pressure to 80 Psi.

As earlier noted, an expansion tank may address the T&P function. However, an “inquiring minds (need to know)“ may force you to find the valve causing the problem. My bet is it’s a PRV, RPZ, DC, check valve or other device located at the meter. When you fixed the leak on the sprinkler system, you stopped the slow relief of over pressured water. Compare the drip from your T&PV now to the leak on your sprinkler piping. Was it the same of perhaps more?

I hope this mini series helps. But the water pressure gauge is the key to identifying your problem. Also, we plumbers call the water pressure gauge several different things, gauge with dead man’s leg, lazy hand, “that two headed gauge,” gauge with max indicator, and sometimes “that damn special“ water gauge! This is a tool all plumbers should have in their tool boxes.

Let us know what you find!
I don’t use those gauges that have the max pressure indicator. In an occupied house with solenoids closing the pressure often spikes.

So it’s really not an indication of water pressure if the house is being used or there’s any type fast closing valves that operated.

To check for uncontrolled thermal expansion all you need to do is:

Make sure all automatic valves are off and can’t come on.
Make sure there are no drips in the system.

Run about 15 gallons of straight hot water out of the water heater. This should make the water heater call for heat. This may take a few minutes with electric.

Once the heater starts heating, install your pressure gauge and open the hose Bibb.........

If it’s a closed system the gauge will start climbing. How far will it climb ? Depends on several factors.
 

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