Water heater advice...

Discussion in 'General Plumbing Help' started by steph746, Dec 29, 2016.

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  1. Jan 10, 2017 #81

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

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    Whether SS, aluminum or galvanized depends on the application.

    If you decide to vent atmospheric via a masonry chimney, it needs needs to be lined and allowances made for the furnace vent and proper draft. If she won't draft at times properly, you may have to add a powered exhaust vent.

    -Types of Chimneys, Vents and Connectors-

    PVC vent material is unsafe, even though supplied with the install kit (documentation contained in earlier post)..

    DIRECT VENT ensures proper exhaust/supply, low emissions and low operating cost.
     
  2. Jan 10, 2017 #82

    Deerslayer

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    Forgive me here
    BUT
    You've got a contractor who doesn't speak English and isn't capable of properly sizing/recommending the right system. So you plan to run plumbers around giving free estimates?? You do realize they make their living plumbing not doing things free for you?
    You sir do not seem to appreciate others experience and time enough to compensate a qaulified person to do this.

    I for one will not further your cause, I will save what little expertise I have for people that don't take plumbers for granted.
     
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  3. Jan 10, 2017 #83

    steph746

    steph746

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    I am considering the estimates I am receiving. The plumber that did some of the other work would also be charging us so I am comparing all quotes.
     
  4. Jan 10, 2017 #84

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

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    :confused:

    Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads my posts-

     
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  5. Jan 10, 2017 #85

    Deerslayer

    Deerslayer

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    Aparantly my reading was impaired when It posted the first time.
     
  6. Jan 10, 2017 #86

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

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    You're OK.

    It bothers me also that someone would seek knowledge w/o compensating (unless it is a salesman). Here it is the purpose of the forum but not expect a tradesman to offer it for free.
     
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  7. Jan 16, 2017 #87

    steph746

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    I decided to go with a tank water heater. Our water heater can be placed next to the wall where it would be vented. Currently there is an atmospheric vent tank there and I believe after researching, that direct vent would be the best option since it can be placed next to the outside wall?

    Would a direct vent be better than a chimney (atmospheric) vent? I suppose I would need to have the chimney lined, but that cost aside, is the efficiency of both similar?
     
  8. Jan 16, 2017 #88

    frodo

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    to answer that question, you would need to know the name and models of both heaters in question
    also the height and route of the proposed vent
     
  9. Jan 17, 2017 #89

    artworksmetal

    artworksmetal

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    I have a Bradford-White 50 gallon running on propane. It's 12 years old and still going strong (fingers crossed) after 12 years in a very hard water area.
    It's what I guess you are calling the power vent with the mixing valve. It mixes hot air with ambient air and forces it out with a squirrel cage blower. The exhaust runs through PVC pipe horizontally almost the entire length of the house and out the foundation.
    It's down in the basement and it seems plenty quiet enough-we certainly never hear it running upstairs.
    I'm just saying my experience has been a good one and I don't see anything wrong with the arrangement.
    I wouldn't get too caught up in "efficiency" as the amount of electricity is negligible compared to so many other things. Compare saving a few dollars a year on gas or electricity with the cost of repairing or replacing the unit every 10 years. That's why I was underwhelmed with the tankless option.
     
  10. Jan 18, 2017 #90

    steph746

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    If I do decide to go tankless, what are the venting options for it. This is the model I am considering and it would be installed near a chimney and against a wall where it could be vented.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00P6XOHFU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

    Is there such a thing as direct venting or chimney venting a tankless or do all tankless models pretty much vent in similar ways?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2018
  11. Jan 18, 2017 #91

    barnabas1969

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    Hi Steph,

    I'm a long-time homeowner who has researched all of these options. Beware of contractors and plumbers who are only looking to "make a buck".

    There are several things to consider. These are, in order from most important to least...

    1) Local building codes.
    2) Your immediate budget for the installation.
    3) Family hot water needs.
    4) Long-term operating/maintenance costs.

    All that talk about bacterial growth is complete BS, unless your local building code REQUIRES a mixing valve (and also requires the water to be heated to a temperature above 120F). Somehow, my brothers, sisters, children, and I have survived for many years without all of that stuff!!!

    To be frank, installing a tankless water heater is expensive up-front. However, it is the most efficient way to go.... IF you plan on staying in the house for more than 10 years.

    Tankless water heaters use a lot less energy than old-fashioned tank-type water heaters. However, they cost a lot more up-front. So, how long you plan to live in the house is a big part of the consideration.

    With tankless water heaters, there is the "cold water sandwich". Here's what that means:

    You turn on the hot water valve... and wait a few seconds until the hot water arrives (just like a normal tank-type water heater). Then, you turn off the faucet.

    You leave the faucet OFF while you do some other things for a few seconds. Then, you turn the hot water faucet ON again. You get hot water for a few seconds... then cold water for a few seconds... and hot water again (endlessly, until you turn off the faucet again).

    That "sandwich" of cold water between the on/off/on of the hot water valve is the "sandwich" that people talk about.

    The reason for this is because the tankless water heater only heats the water when it detects the flow of water. So, when you turn on the faucet the first time... it heats up. THen, when you turn off the faucet, it stops heating. When you turn on the faucet the second time... some cold water passes through the heater before it gets hot again... and so-on.

    This means that you can take a hot shower for as long as you like. But, if you turn the hot water on/off/on/off over and over again... you will get short bursts of cold/hot/cold/hot water.

    It's not a problem. You just need to plan for it.

    Continued...
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  12. Jan 18, 2017 #92

    barnabas1969

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    The whole thing about the size of the tank...

    If you are on natural gas... a 40-50 gallon tank is plenty for a family of four.

    I raised a family of six in a house with a 40 gallon tank (on natural gas).

    For full disclosure... that was in a house in Florida, where the inlet water temperature was 72F! In New England, the inlet water temperature will probably be around 42F... so a 50-60 gallon natural gas tank may be more appropriate!
     
  13. Jan 18, 2017 #93

    barnabas1969

    barnabas1969

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    The venting options depend mostly on cost.

    In cold climates, direct venting makes sense.

    The same holds true for pellet stoves and similar heating devices.

    Think of it this way...

    Indirect venting draws air from the living area in order to burn the fuel. This draws air from the living space. This requires the living space to have sufficient air ingress from outside (meaning that the dwelling isn't sealed well - there is a large enough hole for air to enter the dwelling in order to feed the fire).

    Direct venting draws air directly from outside in order to burn the fuel. The fresh air goes directly to the fire via a pipe or channel.
     
  14. Jan 18, 2017 #94

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

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    :eek:

    ...damn...

    That is a most definitive and broad statement.

    You have data to support this claim hopefully? I would like to read it.

    Now why would an AHJ require a thermal mixing valve other than controlling bacteria that is found in all water supplies... :confused:
     
  15. Jan 18, 2017 #95

    SHEPLMBR

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    Tankless require regular maintenance. Not to mention making sure whomever is installing it knows what they are doing. The gas line to it more than likely will need to be upsized. Not to mention there is no tank for scale build up to accumulate. They need to be flushed no less than twice a year depending on the condition of your water. You can install a scale inhibitor in line in front of it, but again, maintenance for that will be required also.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2018
  16. Jan 18, 2017 #96

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

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    I don't think tank-less is evil but a new technology where proper training is essential (sales and service). And the Japanese hold the technology.

    NOTE- The above is not referring to THE COLD SANDWICH EFFECT. It is the same phenomenon as with a tank heater w/o recirc.

    SOURCE- https://www.rinnai.us/documentation/downloads/U287-1821x01(00)_V53i_and_V53e_(2-17-2011).pdf
     
  17. Jan 18, 2017 #97

    frodo

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    chlorinated city water is pretty much safe from legionaries , it is more likely to be found in ac units, cooling towers and water tanks where the water is stagnant.
    well water is a concern if not chlorinated.but In-line chlorinators can be installed to minimise the condition.
    legionaries is spread by being airborne, not by drinking or washing your hands

    with a water heater at 125 degrees and chlorinated water, the risk is minimal at best.
     
  18. Jan 18, 2017 #98

    frodo

    frodo

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    Kulutz..............

    japtank.jpg
     
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  19. Jan 18, 2017 #99

    SHEPLMBR

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    This is true. But a lot of people are not informed and cannot make a good decision based on non information.
     
  20. Jan 18, 2017 #100

    KULTULZ

    KULTULZ

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    Get A Load of This-

    :confused:

    I don't speak French so I have no idea what that last one means ... :(

    And here is another little diddy-

    There are the bare facts. Conditioning of the water is needed.

    If I was on NG, I would definitely consider one personally.
     

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