Water / Gas LONG RUNS

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Pss3757

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Louisiana
Hello all. Doing new construction as a DIY. The house on this project is about 600feet from city gas and water services at the street. Gonna do the trench work and lay the lines myself to save a little cash the leave the rest up to the pros.
House is a 4BR 2.5BATH.

Going to use PEX for water. Suggestions on type a/b/c and diameter??

Any gas line recommendations? PE (HDPE)…or other? Size? Will have gas stove, furnace, and water heater. Would like continuous run but hard to find material over 500ft.

Any thoughts or advice appreciated.
 
list available pressure for the water, and elevation change if any.
Gas: need total load BTU and if you can get more than standard 7" water column delivered by your utility. Is meter actually at the "street" 600' away?
Find out if you can get what we call medium pressure and how much it would cost. That would decrease your main pipe size to the house and then you would have a pressure regulator at the service entrance, outside at a shutoff.
 
Will get back with more specs. From what I understand both gas and water meters would be a short distance from the street. Lots of recommendations for SIDR?
So many idiots in other forum’s screaming about permitting and licensing…. Of course I’m getting permits and pros will lay the pipe and connections in the trench I dig.

About 4ft elevation rise from street to house.

Just trying to get info on different ways of doing it. And possibly buy materials to save some dough.
 
I would suggest checking on the location of the gas meter. Water meters can be located near the main, but I've not seen gas meters located very far from the building they are servicing. If that is the case here, that line must be installed by the gas company.

If not, I would contact the gas company and get their recommendations/requirements. Because the utility is gas, they could have stringent requirements on materials of construction allowed.
 
In some rural areas they will install a gas meter out near the easement in the middle of the yard.

Crazy and I’ve never agreeed with it. 😕. Makes the customer have to run a service line and size the pipe accordingly. Depending on the pressure/distance it can be a real problem. 600’ a long ass run
 
In our area of MN the meter is right next to the wall of the house, and that regulator is fairly high pressure, and then there is another low pressure regulator at each appliance, this allows the use of much smaller piping.
 
In our area of MN the meter is right next to the wall of the house, and that regulator is fairly high pressure, and then there is another low pressure regulator at each appliance, this allows the use of much smaller piping.
Most likely a 2lb system. We have the same set up.
 
Check codes for your area, but gas lines must be 14 or 16 inches minimum depth. Deep is defined as from ground to the top of the pipe. That means trench depth of 18 inches or more.
Careful as you go past trees, some people will dig under the roots to avoid damage to the tree and reduce possibility of strong wind toppling them.
The piping from the street up to, and including the meter, is the GAS company’s hardware. You can trench it, but leave the material installation to them. FYI, street gas pressure is around 40 psi.
You can install your own piping. It’s easier to install house piping after the meter is already there, but there are advantages to pre-piping.
When I do my own piping, I calculate the BTU totals and figure the pipe size presuming 11 inches of water. In your case, I’d use AT LEAST 1-inch black iron. (Me, I went with 1-1/4”). The double regulator method (40# to 2# to final) is risky. I also setup a test where I pressurized the pipes with 50 psi from regulated compressor using AIR, and check the joints. Presuming the meter regulator fails OPEN and you’re getting full street pressure.
Regarding house piping, I hate to say it, but black iron is the safest material. I hesitate because natural gas inherently contains hydrogen sulfide. Yeah, the gas providers are supposed to scrub and process the NG to minimize it, but I KNOW some gas sellers didn’t scrub at all.
Problem with hydrogen sulfide is when it combines with water vapors, it combines, breaks down and forms a mile aqueous solution of sulfuric acid which is VERY corrosive. Painting the inside of the pipes helps (YES, I do that by pulling saturated cotton through on a string). Some will use galvanized pipes, but that creates the white zinc oxide powder that can clog appliance valves if you’re not careful with debris traps. So some experts don’t recommend galvanized.
Finally, sealing pipe threads is many times, misunderstood. Some will use Teflon tape thinking it’s a sealant. It’s NOT. Teflon is a dry LUBRICANT. It doesn’t seal anything. The philosophy of tapered pipe threads is that metal will smash against each other (male-female) and form a true metal to metal seal. In the old days, that worked because pipes were LEAD, and the soft metal would comply in compressive yield. Black iron is actually mild steel and getting a true metal to metal seal involves highly precise machining and crazy high torque, and that’s ignoring high friction loads and galling. Remedy is to have a lubricating sealant. I’m an aerospace engineer by profession (mechanical by education) and some colleagues have petrochemical background. The petroleum processing plants see these threading problems on a more challenging scale. They use a graphite infused medium that will expand (2-3%). Graphite is a fantastic lubricant, much better than Teflon, and the expansion action seals in a more positive way than just brush-on goop. It’s hard to find because it’s an industrial product, not commercial.
So, use the goop if you can’t find anything better, but do NOT use it with Teflon tape. (We did serious testing in the lab, long story by Teflon is self-defeating). Make sure the threads are clean and dry (YES, I use an old toothbrush with soapy water on all the threads and blow dry). Torque until the pipes won’t turn anymore, for 1” pipe that may be 150-200 ft-Lbs force.

Good luck.
 
I was told many years ago to never use Teflon tape on gas lines because, If the tape is wrapped over the end at all, or if a joint is taken apart and reassembled without proper cleaning, there is a chance of a piece of tape getting in the pipe. This piece of tape can float through the system, get stuck in a valve, hold it open, fill you house with gas and it blows up! That theory is good enough for me, I will never use tape on a gas line!
 
Check codes for your area, but gas lines must be 14 or 16 inches minimum depth. Deep is defined as from ground to the top of the pipe. That means trench depth of 18 inches or more.
Careful as you go past trees, some people will dig under the roots to avoid damage to the tree and reduce possibility of strong wind toppling them.
The piping from the street up to, and including the meter, is the GAS company’s hardware. You can trench it, but leave the material installation to them. FYI, street gas pressure is around 40 psi.
You can install your own piping. It’s easier to install house piping after the meter is already there, but there are advantages to pre-piping.
When I do my own piping, I calculate the BTU totals and figure the pipe size presuming 11 inches of water. In your case, I’d use AT LEAST 1-inch black iron. (Me, I went with 1-1/4”). The double regulator method (40# to 2# to final) is risky. I also setup a test where I pressurized the pipes with 50 psi from regulated compressor using AIR, and check the joints. Presuming the meter regulator fails OPEN and you’re getting full street pressure.
Regarding house piping, I hate to say it, but black iron is the safest material. I hesitate because natural gas inherently contains hydrogen sulfide. Yeah, the gas providers are supposed to scrub and process the NG to minimize it, but I KNOW some gas sellers didn’t scrub at all.
Problem with hydrogen sulfide is when it combines with water vapors, it combines, breaks down and forms a mile aqueous solution of sulfuric acid which is VERY corrosive. Painting the inside of the pipes helps (YES, I do that by pulling saturated cotton through on a string). Some will use galvanized pipes, but that creates the white zinc oxide powder that can clog appliance valves if you’re not careful with debris traps. So some experts don’t recommend galvanized.
Finally, sealing pipe threads is many times, misunderstood. Some will use Teflon tape thinking it’s a sealant. It’s NOT. Teflon is a dry LUBRICANT. It doesn’t seal anything. The philosophy of tapered pipe threads is that metal will smash against each other (male-female) and form a true metal to metal seal. In the old days, that worked because pipes were LEAD, and the soft metal would comply in compressive yield. Black iron is actually mild steel and getting a true metal to metal seal involves highly precise machining and crazy high torque, and that’s ignoring high friction loads and galling. Remedy is to have a lubricating sealant. I’m an aerospace engineer by profession (mechanical by education) and some colleagues have petrochemical background. The petroleum processing plants see these threading problems on a more challenging scale. They use a graphite infused medium that will expand (2-3%). Graphite is a fantastic lubricant, much better than Teflon, and the expansion action seals in a more positive way than just brush-on goop. It’s hard to find because it’s an industrial product, not commercial.
So, use the goop if you can’t find anything better, but do NOT use it with Teflon tape. (We did serious testing in the lab, long story by Teflon is self-defeating). Make sure the threads are clean and dry (YES, I use an old toothbrush with soapy water on all the threads and blow dry). Torque until the pipes won’t turn anymore, for 1” pipe that may be 150-200 ft-Lbs force.

Good luck.
Hello fairfieldfanatic, my fellow Mechanical Engineer. My professional career has been mostly in Chemical and Refinery facilities.

I'm with you on your post until your very last sentence. A torque value for tapered pipe threads is irrelevant. I know you are using that number just as a reference point, but there are too many variables to use torque as a determining factor. And stating that a pipe should be tightened until it "won’t turn anymore" will cause some DIYers a huge problem.

Screwed piping tightening requires experience to develop a feel. Starting with clean threads and using a paste thread sealant and NOT Teflon tape is very important just as you said. One should be able to screw the pipe and fitting together finger tight using 3 full turns +/-. Then using pipe wrenches, or a pipe wrench and a large adjustable wrench if the fitting has a hexagonal shape, tighten the joint 2 more full turns +/-. Overtightening screwed pipe joints can stretch the female part, gall the threads, and even break the pipe off at the fitting. I witnessed a new 1" schedule steel 40 pipe get twisted off at a valve.

So, for all you DIYers out there, assembling screwed piping does take a "feel" to get it properly tight. If it's water, it can leak water, darn. If it is gas, it can leak gas, DAMN!
 
If a 2 regulator 2# system is risky then I suppose all typical residential LP systems are risky.

Natural gas delivery is much different than it was 75 yrs ago. Higher pressures mean dryer gas.

Swabbing the inside residential lines with paint ? 🌈🙊

I’m tired. I could go on and on.
 
Tips:

Use American made fittings and pipe.
Use good dies with the right oil.
Use some good pipe dope
Tighten 2-3 turns past hand tight.

Tell your sister I said hello……✌️
 
Hello fairfieldfanatic, my fellow Mechanical Engineer. My professional career has been mostly in Chemical and Refinery facilities.

I'm with you on your post until your very last sentence. A torque value for tapered pipe threads is irrelevant. I know you are using that number just as a reference point, but there are too many variables to use torque as a determining factor. And stating that a pipe should be tightened until it "won’t turn anymore" will cause some DIYers a huge problem.

Screwed piping tightening requires experience to develop a feel. Starting with clean threads and using a paste thread sealant and NOT Teflon tape is very important just as you said. One should be able to screw the pipe and fitting together finger tight using 3 full turns +/-. Then using pipe wrenches, or a pipe wrench and a large adjustable wrench if the fitting has a hexagonal shape, tighten the joint 2 more full turns +/-. Overtightening screwed pipe joints can stretch the female part, gall the threads, and even break the pipe off at the fitting. I witnessed a new 1" schedule steel 40 pipe get twisted off at a valve.

So, for all you DIYers out there, assembling screwed piping does take a "feel" to get it properly tight. If it's water, it can leak water, darn. If it is gas, it can leak gas, DAMN!
MicEd69 - I totally agree with your pipe torque comment; there are far too many variables to specify a final number. That’s why I wrote it “MAY” take as much. In hindsight I should have explained it more gooder. Thanks for the catch.

But an important point was made; NG is potentially dangerous and if this is your first time; either hire a licensed contractor or get a knowledgeable friend to help. I admit, I’m pretty anal about how I do things, ESPECIALLY lives are at stake. Take NG piping seriously.
 
Hello fairfieldfanatic, my fellow Mechanical Engineer. My professional career has been mostly in Chemical and Refinery facilities.

I'm with you on your post until your very last sentence. A torque value for tapered pipe threads is irrelevant. I know you are using that number just as a reference point, but there are too many variables to use torque as a determining factor. And stating that a pipe should be tightened until it "won’t turn anymore" will cause some DIYers a huge problem.

Screwed piping tightening requires experience to develop a feel. Starting with clean threads and using a paste thread sealant and NOT Teflon tape is very important just as you said. One should be able to screw the pipe and fitting together finger tight using 3 full turns +/-. Then using pipe wrenches, or a pipe wrench and a large adjustable wrench if the fitting has a hexagonal shape, tighten the joint 2 more full turns +/-. Overtightening screwed pipe joints can stretch the female part, gall the threads, and even break the pipe off at the fitting. I witnessed a new 1" schedule steel 40 pipe get twisted off at a valve.

So, for all you DIYers out there, assembling screwed piping does take a "feel" to get it properly tight. If it's water, it can leak water, darn. If it is gas, it can leak gas, DAMN!
here is how real plumber know how to tighten pipe
if it is a 1/2 pipe use a six inch pipe wrench, if it is a 3/4 then use a eight, if it is a one inch use a 12 inch, if a 1 1/4 use a fourteen, 1 1/2 use 18 inch wrench, if 2 use. a 2 inch, you tighten all pipes to a certain force all equal tork .
 
Around here the gas company would come out and help size it up and more or less tell you how they want done. The last 600ft
line we did if I remember correctly we had to run 2" line. I agree no teflon tape. You can buy pipe dope with cream teflon in it.
 
here is how real plumber know how to tighten pipe
if it is a 1/2 pipe use a six inch pipe wrench, if it is a 3/4 then use a eight, if it is a one inch use a 12 inch, if a 1 1/4 use a fourteen, 1 1/2 use 18 inch wrench, if 2 use. a 2 inch, you tighten all pipes to a certain force all equal tork .
First, I assume you really meant to say you use a 2 FOOT pipe wrench for 2" pipe. LOL

And I also assume you really meant to say that you tighten them with the same force applied to the wrench, which would result in increased torque based on the length of the pipe wrench being used.

I get what you are saying, but I seriously doubt that a real plumber switches pipe wrenches when they are installing a 1" x 3/4" bell reducer and then screw in the 3/4" pipe. Bottom line is that connecting threaded pipe requires a learned "feel". And as you and fairfieldfanatic and I said, gas piping is not for the normal DIYer.
 
I like to run gas lines with lifetime warranty water hoses. They usually last until I move.

People are going to DIY everything. It’s just a fact. May as well talk about it and educate people.

It’s like telling teenagers “ don’t drink alcohol “ “ don’t have relations “ 🤡
 
I like to run gas lines with lifetime warranty water hoses. They usually last until I move.

People are going to DIY everything. It’s just a fact. May as well talk about it and educate people.

It’s like telling teenagers “ don’t drink alcohol “ “ don’t have relations “ 🤡
Yep, we've both seen some pretty scary things that some DIYers have done.

The only thing we can do is warn them of the dire consequences of something that they are attempting to tackle without the proper training or aptitude. Most sewer and water supply plumbing errors will cause an "ah sh*t" mess. Some will cause dangerous issues, but gas piping errors can cause a "boom".

The scariest DIY examples I come across are in the electrical field. They can cause "electrocution" and/or a "house fire" which can cause deaths just like the gas "boom".

And there are some pretty terrible YouTube videos out there that scare me for the people that are doing them and anyone else who would follow them. That is why it is important that Forums like these exist so that perhaps the professionals and the people experienced in these topics can provide adequate information as to hazards associated with the work being planned.
 
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