voids in solder

Discussion in 'General Plumbing Help' started by Plumberx, Apr 6, 2018.

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  1. Apr 13, 2018 #21

    Matt30

    Matt30

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    Precisely :D Thats how ya know ya goofed!
     
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  2. Apr 13, 2018 #22

    Plumberx

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    this is the torch I took (for the last pic), same setting as these two guys but put the flame a bit closer than them I think.



    here are the pics of my flame: TS8000_low_setting.jpg ts8000_low_setting_pipe.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  3. Apr 13, 2018 #23

    Plumberx

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    the flame I used for the 1st pic (in the 1st post of this thread) (mt575c torch) :

    pic1_MT575C.PNG
     
  4. Apr 13, 2018 #24

    Geofd

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    show us the whole torch set up so we can see the bottle the tip and roll of solder....
     
  5. Apr 13, 2018 #25

    frodo

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    from the look of your split fitting i would say to much heat
    what type of torch are you using?
    if you are using a turbo, you must kep the flame moving around the joint
    if you leave it in one spot, you will burn the flux away.
    what size tip are you using?
     
  6. Apr 13, 2018 #26

    CT18

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    We tin larger pipe before soldering to help avoid voids. If you are concerned you could try that way with your smaller pipe.
     
  7. Apr 13, 2018 #27

    TomFOhio

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    If you are soldering this fitting and having a water leak out of the fitting then it is not being cleaned properly or you are
    getting the fitting to hot. That torch head looks like one you buy at the box stores. I personally use a turbo torch. I use to
    use the B tank with the hose but it started getting to heavy to take up and down the stairs. Lol.
     
  8. Apr 13, 2018 #28

    Plumberx

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    torch.jpg
     
  9. Apr 13, 2018 #29

    Plumberx

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    I posted the torch I'm using (the tip came with it). Yes maybe I'm overheating but I heated the tube a little bit, moved the flame all around the fitting, put the torch on the lowest setting, sometimes removing the flame ... I don't see what else I can do.

    In this article there's a picture of the same voids I have, they called it "trapped flux pockets" and are explaining the cause :
    https://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/a4068.pdf

    They're saying perfects joints are rare.

    Cold peel is easy, one cut on the side of the fitting with a thin cut-off wheel (4-1/2 x 3/64) on a grinder, then open the whole thing flat with 2 multigrip pliers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  10. Apr 13, 2018 #30

    Plumberx

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    Would you please explain how to do this? I guess you flux and apply solder with a hot tool (which one?)Thanks
     
  11. Apr 13, 2018 #31

    CT18

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    Clean and flux the pipe end, then apply the solder. After that you need to wipe off excess solder. Then flux the fitting and heat the pipe end and slide the fitting on and re solder everything. I know some people will tin the fitting also. They also used to make tinning flux that had solder already in it but i believe they outlawed it.
     
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  12. Apr 14, 2018 #32

    frodo

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    From the video, the brush is 10 times to big, i could see where the fitting did not have any flux on the inside of the cuff, the flux was all on the edge.

    or use, a pre tinning flux

    flux.jpg
     
  13. Apr 14, 2018 #33

    frodo

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    for starters,

    you have a torch that is either on or off, you have none to very very limited flame adjustment

    you need to spend some money on a professional torch if you want profesional results
    there are 2 types
    turbo
    soft flame
    I use both, but prefer soft flame, a good torch rig will cost around $125.00 and a tank is $100
    b tank.jpg
    turbo torch.jpg turbotorch-sof-flame.gif
     
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  14. Apr 14, 2018 #34

    Plumberx

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    I'll do this. Although I don't see what to use to wipe the excess solder, maybe the half of a fitting or 80 grit sandpaper when cold. Don't like the idea to use a rag in the connection. I know when I sanded, fluxed, heated, sanded and fluxed again it was more difficult to separate the tube from the fitting so tinning might help for a stronger joint.
     
  15. Apr 14, 2018 #35

    Matt30

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    Try using propane instead of Map gas. You don't need something that burns that hot for 1/2" and 3/4" joints. If your torch control isn't thst great you will be less likely to scorch the fitting with propane.
     
  16. Apr 14, 2018 #36

    Plumberx

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    The TS8000 I'm using is adjustable. Nice post for the torches, I searched a lot which one to use.
     
  17. Apr 14, 2018 #37

    Plumberx

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    I did. Same result.

    I can try to raise the heat of the mapp and to stay only on one side of the joint then I'll see if the void is on the same side.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  18. Apr 14, 2018 #38

    Plumberx

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    About the article discussing trapped flux pockets (creating voids), I had trouble reading this because english is not my first language. I think they're saying that a cap of solder is created all around the entry of the fitting, so the flux can't escape. They also said to put the flame slightly ahead of the solder and move the flame and solder around the joint (I tried this already but maybe I added too much solder too quickly thus creating the cap all around).

    Article:
    Flux pockets that are trapped but not
    burned — exhibiting wet, shiny copper
    surfaces (Figure 4) — generally indicate
    failure to maintain the proper relationship
    between the point of application
    of the heat and the application of the
    filler metal. Maintaining the point of
    application of heat at the base of the fitting
    cup, slightly ahead of the solder
    metal is essential in preventing trapped
    flux pockets.
    Applying the heat behind the point of
    application of the solder, or keeping the
    heat in one place as the solder is applied
    around the joint allows the solder to create
    a cap at the face of the solder joint,
    through which the flux cannot escape the
    joint and becomes trapped. Remember, a
    trapped flux pocket will always prevent
    solder from filling that space.
     
  19. Apr 14, 2018 #39

    TomFOhio

    TomFOhio

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    This is the turbo torch that I use. It is adjustable to a lower flame for tight spaces. Like I said I use to use the
    B tank like Fredo is showing us. I still have it and the hose set-up and carrier replaceinfo.jpg after all these years. You can use
    propane or mapp gas with the turbo.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Apr 16, 2018 #40

    Plumberx

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    a few months ago I soldered a lead free fitting , a drop of solder falled in the pipe coming from the bottom of the fitting. Since then I'm forcing the pipe on the bottom of the fitting to avoid this...

    Here's the last job, not perfect but better, not sure why.
    -I fully inserted the pipe in the fitting then pulled the pipe back 1/16" to maybe allow the flux/air to escape.
    -I used the technique described in the copper development association website to apply solder except that I didn't preheat the tube.
    -I increased the distance from the flame to the fitting while heating (maybe 1.5" instead of 1").
    -I added a small qty of solder all around the ftting.
    solder3.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018

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