Vibration from water well pump - Water Pump Switch as cause?

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Valveman

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You can use the CSV with any size tank you want, which makes your toilet flushing theory a moot point. However, it is better for the pump to cycle on for every flush of a toilet than to cycle for long term uses like showers and sprinklers. Even with a small tank the CSV doesn't cause the pump to cycle for every toilet flush, but rather every water use event. If you flush a toilet a hundred times in a row, the CSV only lets the pump cycle once. If you flush a toilet, wash your hands, get in the shower, or a washing machine starts filling, the CSV still only let the pump cycle once.

A 100 gallon pressure tank only holds 25 gallons of water, which is only good for fifteen 1.6 gallon flushes. Since the CSV keeps the pump running until you stop using water, even with a small tank the pump only cycles about 25 times a day, no matter how many times you flush a toilet.
 

Twowaxhack

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With less cycling wouldn’t the pressure drop really low ?

Only 15 flushes ? That’s about 3 days or more of flushing the toilet for us. The pump would only come on one time in three days. That’s bad ? Trying figure out how it would help me.

I think their well is set to 75psi. I’m not sure.
 

Twowaxhack

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I thought the pressure tank was the part of the system that allowed you to set the pressure switch up with a differential on/off and that’s what stops the pump from cutting on and off in quick succession (cycling).

I guess your device stops the pump from coming on and off as much ?

But wouldn’t you Drop below your “ on “ pressure setting and your bladder tank can only supply a limited amount of water......and the pump won’t come on.

So wouldn’t that drop your pressure ?

If you’re willing to live with lower pressure than the pressure switch is set at, why not just lower the “ on “ pressure at the switch ?
 

Valveman

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I don't know how to explain it any better. Did you watch the video? Your water doesn't come from the tank, it comes from the pump and well. The tank just absorbs the extra water the pump is producing over what you are using at any given time. The bladder tank always has a limited supply. In the case of your 100 gallon size tank, the supply is 25 gallons. The pump doesn't even come on until you have used all 25 gallons out of the tank. So, the tank cannot help supply any water. The pressure would only drop below 40 if you are using all 10+ GPM the pump can supply, like running 4 showers at a time. Otherwise the pressure just bounces between 40 and 60 as the tank fills and drains.

If you only flush 5 times a day, what would it hurt if the pump did cycle 5 times a day. 100-300 cycles per day is the number we are trying to stay away from. 5 cycles is a long way from there. The pump would probably not cycle for toilet flushes anyway, as they will happen before, during, or after water is used somewhere else in the house. Plus you could still keep your 25 gallon draw tank if you wanted, as it would work fine with a CSV. You could still flush the toilet for 3 days before the pump came on. The CSV would only take over if you turned on a sprinkler or took a long shower. And as long as your tank is good, I would continue to use it. But when the bladder goes out from cycling, replacing that tank with anything larger than a 10 gallon size (2 gallon draw) tank is a waste of money and space.

The CSV is one of those things you have to see working, and then even scratch your head for a while, before you figure out all the benefits. But you can see what a few hundred other people who have tried them think here. Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc
 

Twowaxhack

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I was just curious how my parents pump has lasted so many years without a cycle limiter. I guess it’s one of those fluke systems that last and last. It’s been working for 15 years without any service except for a relay in the control box. We know that because the well man died that year.

Thanks for clearing those questions up for me.
 

Twowaxhack

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I watched the video. It seems the valve prevents the pump from reaching the cut out pressure making it run continuously while you’re using a faucet.

So that means my pump will run at full power but I would nit get full benefit.
Seems like that would waste power.........
I think I like having a bigger tank.

Even if I didn’t have a bigger tank and I didn’t want my pump to cycle when I used a sprinkler system I could just make enough zones to come on so the pump never cuts off until the zones shut down.

And that’s what I’m going to do !!!!!!!

I think the video really made it clear.


Is that right ?
 

Valveman

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You still don't understand. There is a lot of info on that video. Look at the amp meter. The pump drops to half power when using less water. Just another one of those counter intuitive things about pumps that people don't understand. Cycling on and off waste power, as it takes 6 times the energy to start a pump compared to keeping it running.

Sure you can put on enough sprinklers to keep the pump running, which is the way we used to do it before the CSV existed. However, when you use enough sprinklers to keep the pump running, now you have no water left for the house and the pressure will be really low. With a CSV there is plenty of water and pressure left for the house because you are not using it all on the sprinklers. It is also hard to match every sprinkler zone to the pump. Some zones need to be smaller than others or you are over-watering and wasting water and energy.

I also didn't understand how good the CSV was for pump systems until I heard what Goulds pumps and others said about them behind closed doors. In 1994 several of the major pump companies blacklisted the CSV. I didn't even know about it for years. But finally an engineer who retired from Goulds told me the story. He said after they tested Cycle Stop Valves they were told never to mention them again. The quote was, "Cycle Stop Valves make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. Goulds makes pumps and tanks. So, anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately".

So, keep telling yourself that you don't need a $69 or $179 CSV and you will pay much more to keep your pump equipment working over the years, and not have strong constant pressure in the house. Thanks for looking at the video, but you need to watch it again. And did you read any of those hundreds of reviews from people who were skeptical like you? They are not skeptical anymore.
 

Twowaxhack

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You still don't understand. There is a lot of info on that video. Look at the amp meter. The pump drops to half power when using less water. Just another one of those counter intuitive things about pumps that people don't understand. Cycling on and off waste power, as it takes 6 times the energy to start a pump compared to keeping it running.

Sure you can put on enough sprinklers to keep the pump running, which is the way we used to do it before the CSV existed. However, when you use enough sprinklers to keep the pump running, now you have no water left for the house and the pressure will be really low. With a CSV there is plenty of water and pressure left for the house because you are not using it all on the sprinklers. It is also hard to match every sprinkler zone to the pump. Some zones need to be smaller than others or you are over-watering and wasting water and energy.

I also didn't understand how good the CSV was for pump systems until I heard what Goulds pumps and others said about them behind closed doors. In 1994 several of the major pump companies blacklisted the CSV. I didn't even know about it for years. But finally an engineer who retired from Goulds told me the story. He said after they tested Cycle Stop Valves they were told never to mention them again. The quote was, "Cycle Stop Valves make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. Goulds makes pumps and tanks. So, anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately".

So, keep telling yourself that you don't need a $69 or $179 CSV and you will pay much more to keep your pump equipment working over the years, and not have strong constant pressure in the house. Thanks for looking at the video, but you need to watch it again. And did you read any of those hundreds of reviews from people who were skeptical like you? They are not skeptical anymore.
I understand perfectly.

We don’t use the pump for anything except an outside toilet and for irrigation.

We don’t use it for the house. We have city water for that.

So matching my flow of the sprinkler heads to the out out of the pump would stop my pump from cycling.

Just like “ how y’all use to do it “

But, my parents pump is 15 yrs old.....and it’s still working fine. I guess we’re really lucky.

I’ve figured out a way to operate our pump without cycling and without your valve.

I think that’s awesome 👍

I guess your valve would be great if people had a really small tank and uses a lot of water. But I don’t think we need it after you explained it.

I appreciate your help !
 

Valveman

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You sure where right., My mom combined the zones this Morning and she says the pump is running the whole time the sprinklers are.

Thank you so much !!! No more cycling !!!!!

Done learnt me something.......👍
Anyway you stop the cycling is good. Combining zones is a good idea. Most people use the same pump for the house and wouldn't be happy with the low pressure when doubling up on the irrigation zones. I personally would not be happy having to live on bad tasting chlorinated city water for the house. I like my well water much better.

BTW, pumps that are used for irrigation only don't need a pressure tank or pressure switch, just a pump start relay and correctly sized sprinkler zones.
 

Twowaxhack

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I watched a video made by some guy explaining how it works on youtube but it never mentioned anything about lowering the amp draw. I thought the guy was you

You might need to clean up the info out there about your product.

Anyway you stop the cycling is good. Combining zones is a good idea. Most people use the same pump for the house and wouldn't be happy with the low pressure when doubling up on the irrigation zones. I personally would not be happy having to live on bad tasting chlorinated city water for the house. I like my well water much better.

BTW, pumps that are used for irrigation only don't need a pressure tank or pressure switch, just a pump start relay and correctly sized sprinkler zones.
Well water can change over time and our well water is a little acidic. We would have to treat it.

We drink and cook with conditioned tap water.

The chlorine in the water and it’s treatment from the city keeps our plumbing fixtures very clean.

We don’t use the pump only for irrigation.

We flush a toilet with it and have a hose Bibb along with the irrigation heads.

anyway, thanks for explaining how to stop my pump from cycling when the irrigation is on. 👍
 

Twowaxhack

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Does your valve have any electrical component ?

So you’re saying that when my pump turns on after the pressure drops to the cut in point set point the pump only pumps the amount of water that I’m using ?

So if I go to my parents and turn on all the sprinkler heads and make the pump full flow, I will record max amp draw.
Then I turn the irrigation off and start flushing the toilet a few times the amp draw will drop drastically after the pressure tank fills ?

Even without your valve ?

Is that correct ?

If you don’t want to answer, that’s fine. There’s no reason to get upset.
 
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Twowaxhack

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Patience is to be commended.
Keep paying attention, we all will learn something.👍

According the inventor himself, I don’t need a cycle stop valve. I just needed to better match my output to the pumps capacity.

That’s what I did and the pump runs and the grass gets watered all at once. Works great.48DABC85-3612-41E5-B44A-CFEE98A6498B.jpeg

In my experience when you restrict the output of a pump the amp draw spikes. Of course unless the pump is variable speed. Are submersible well pumps variable speed ?
Anyone feel free to answer.......
 
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Valveman

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I think I have been insulted. Lol! Anyway, no! Amps go down when you restrict a pump, not up. Variable speed pumps are just a money trap for people who don't understand that. I can send you to multiple articles with curves and graphs to prove it. But those are even harder to understand than the counter intuitive way pumps work. So, I made a video with all the curves and graphs explained. See below.

Even though you doubled up on the zones and are now able to keep the pump from cycling, I did not say that meant there would be no benefits from adding a Cycle Stop Valve. Not to mention a CSV would give you control of the pressure and volume used, the mechanical soft start would eliminate water hammer on pump stop and keep the check valve and other things from failing. The CSV would have also worked fine with a $75 pressure tank instead of a $750 one. Could have made a mortgage payment or had a good vacation on the difference.

Plenty more to learn about pumps if your interested. I have been doing nothing but pumps for 50+ years and still learn something every once in a while. :)

 

Twowaxhack

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That’s all awesome but the pump is 15 yrs old at least and it’s been working fine.

Now that’s it’s not cycling with the irrigation we’re just going to leave it alone.

We think combining the zones helped enough for what it cost us to do, which was nothing.

Plus it’s not my pump. Thanks for all your info ! I appreciate it ! 👍

I especially thank you for correcting me on the amp draw of a pump that’s restricted. I always assumed that it would increase amp draw. What I confused it with is when a sewage pump gets its impeller jammed the amps draw goes up......not when it’s outlet is restricted.

I got those two confused. I appreciate you correcting me.

👍👍👍
 
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Bucky Plumber

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Well....

Didn't see all of this activity after I posted my original results, and...

I dont think the pressure switch was the source of my vibration, as many of you have pointed out.

When I first installed the new pressure switch I swear it was operating much quieter and no vibration was heard on the floor above. I was testing it with the main ball valve to the house shut off which may have been why it sounded quieter, see my other tests below.

The next day it sounded the same as it did with the old pressure switch.

The next thing I did was install a flexible line to the pressure switch to isolate the vibration (shown below). Just did this last night and I would say it made no difference and may even be a little louder.

Next I was, again, trying to isolate the source of the vibration so I shut off the main ball valve to the rest of the house (see picture below) and cycled the pump several times. I would say it was 75% less vibration than with the main ball valve open. So could the source of some of the vibration be this ball valve or something downstream in the system?

When the pump runs and water is pumped at 10 gpm into the system/tank does it create vibration through the different valves and connections in the system?

Not sure what to try next. Any ideas?

@RS You were correct, not the pressure switch. Any other ideas for me to isolate the source of the vibration? Maybe the pressure tank? I think our pressure tank is in working order. It is set at 38 psi when empty and gets 7-8 gallons per cycle.

@Jeff Handy might have to install one of those flexible Sharkbite flexible lines in the main line, as you suggested long ago. I would kick myself (and my wife would scold me) if it again didnt eliminate the vibration.

Valveman - I think your CSV is a good idea and makes sense but not sure if it would solve my vibration issue. The pump is not rapid cycling, we get 7-8 gallons per cycle from the pressure tank.

Flexible line to pressure switch -
20210402_083804.jpg

Ball valve -
20210403_124705.jpg
 

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